Oakspear

Always enjoy the Christian vs. Agnostic sparring...missed ya at the Weenie Roast In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I'm having a rough week :(--> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

What? The story of how Wierwille did a hostile takeover of the Way East and the Way West has never been posted here before? Heefner and Doop were heading up independent corporations using the PFAL class and running fellowships in California and New York respectively. They had a separate set of Trustees or Directors. I don't remember all the details, but Wierwille managed to set things up so that he was in control of both organizations, folding them into the Way International. He saw how others were having sucess using his stuff...if he was that much of a control freak, does anyone think that he would have stood still if unauthorized people were printing copies of PFAL, or even just parts of it and putting their own names on it? Of course not! The remarks about plagerizing from Karl were supposed to be humorous!!!! --> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

that was the initial reason...now I'm just being contrary. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Nah, I don't want to plagerize Karl K. :D--> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

It is not arguable that large parts of Mr. Wierwille's early work was identical or nearly so to the works of other authors. Okay, it now looks like there is no argument about whether Mr. Wierwille actually read the works of others before compiling his own works. It certainly is a documented fact that Wierwille and a few others attended Leonard's class in Canada. There doesn't seem to be an argument about whether or not Wierwille's actions meet the legal definition of plagerism. The only argument that I can discern is whether it was important or not. Whether Wierwille should or should not be held to the same standards as everyone else. Whether Wierwille's wholesale copying of others' works was done at the behest of God, or in order to line his own pockets. When's one's unshakeable premise is that PFAL is the new Word of God, and that virtually everything done to bring it forth was justified, then nothing else matters. When one has a somewhat open mind, one can more easily accept that things may not have been as they appear. Roy brought up a good point: If someone had taken Wierwille's work and repackaged it under a different name, how would Wierwille have responded? Never mind hypotheticals, look how he did respond to independent groups (the Way East, the Way West and the Way of Australia) running classes that he had no direct control over? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Sam is "out" and is registered here on GreaseSpotCafe as Scoburn. Another GSer noticed his name is the "blue box" one night while we werre in chat. I have emailed back and forth with him a few times. His profile shows that he is in Independence, Missouri. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Nicely put, Laleo. Any objective reading of JPW's website and Platig's letter should reveal who's being sincere and who's trying to muddy the waters. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

...but I was mainly thinking of it as a rebuttal point to what Platig said. If you have in writing Harve's assertion that their actions were taken with family approval and it turns out that it was bull...., that would be pretty hard for any remaining "innies" to rationalize away...hmmm, maybe not! In the grand scheme of things...even in the SMALL scheme of things, it makes no difference to me, just like to see TWI choke on their own words...because they insisted on publishing! Even if one of the sisters had power-of-attorney for their mom, was she given any kind of true choice? "Mrs. _________, this is Harve Platig, the doctors say that your mother needs around-the-clock care in an Alzheimer's Unit due to her deteriorating condition. We will not under any circumstances be providing any care here at her home other than someone to cook for her and hold her hand. Sorry, the lawyers say we can't do it...laws, ya know. What is your decision Mrs. __________?" I can empathize with JPW's frustration. Prevented from visiting his mother in her own home, at least consoled by the fact that she is being taken care of physically...oops, she's sick...you take care of her...she's your mother. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Just from reading JPW's letter, the beef does not seem to be that the nursing home was the option, but TWI's dishonesty through it all. JPW disputes TWI's assertion that the family was in on the decision He implies that she was not receiving proper care before being sent to the nursing home. From the written corresponance it does not appear that JPW is seeking to return his mother to her home, or to remove her from the nursing home. According to him, a decision regarding his mother's care was made without consent of her children it was apprently made, at least in part, to be convenient for TWI TWI should have found a way to be financially responsible for her care I don't see where Wierwille is demanding anything of substance from TWI, it looks like he is trying to set the record straight. In order for us to be able to see the picture more clearly, we will need to hear from the unnamed sister who allegedly has the power-of-attorney (or all three of them for that matter) to confirm or deny the competing versions of this story. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Nothing to re-claim, it was the pagans' to start with! The folks who started the observance didn't believe in a devil anyway, so it not a "devil's holiday". The Christians tried to claim it centuries ago by turning it into All Saints Day. That went over well, didn't it? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

About two years ago I was thrown out of TWI primarily for posting on Grease Spot Cafe. Will I be getting an invitation to return d'ya think? :D--> Here are a few of my thoughts on Mr. Platig's letter to JPW. Points A, B, & C following are taken from Mr. Platig's intro: A. It is unprecedented for TWI to respond to attacks posted on the internet - they are responding because Mrs. W is so important and the nature of the innacuracies.Mr.Platig laso claims that the "household" was not informed of the nursing home move because it was a family matter. Does this mean that the threads about VPW being an abuser of women and a research hack aren't innaccurate? Or maybe as inaccurate? This is the worst thing that GS has ever put out? What's really going on here? And since when is anything regarding TWI top leadership "just a family matter"? A high-profile person like Mrs. W. goes into a nursing home and they decide not to tell anyone? B. Accuses JPW of putting his personal agenda over his mother's health. This, of course, is Harve (reader-of-teachings)'s personal opinion, and classic TWI tactics. Confuse the issue by questioning the person's motives. C. TWI claims that Wanda informed JPW's sister, who got the agreement of other siblings, JPW claims that it was done without their knowledge. "He said/She said" until this unnamed sister weighs in with additional evidence. Points 1- 4 are from Mr. Platig's supposed "rebuttals" to JP accusations and implications: 1. Harve argues about what JP disagrees "without equivocation" with. It is obvious from his letter that he disagrees with the assertion by the BOD that the action was taken with his and his sisters' consent. Harve plays word games to make it look like JP disagrees with medical advice, or with his mother getting the best care. How many times I saw this in TWI, confuse the issue by taking what the person said and twisting it just slightly. This is good ol' TWI leadership at it's best. Confuse the issue, blame the victim, make it look like the person with the complaint is saying something that they are not really saying. Classic. Mr. Platig mentions that the care is better than that which Wanda Wierwille can provide. He does not address JPW's actual point, which is not that an individual, Wanda Wierwille, can duplicate the care in a nursing home, but that a huge corporation can. Harve suggests that there is nothing to prevent JP from taking Mrs. W into his (JP's) home. Nowhere is JPW suggesting that being in a nursing home is bad, nor do I think that JP, or his sisters taking over Mrs. W's care is comparable to an international organization with millions in assets doing the same. JPW is not suggesting that she go to his home, but that TWI has the resources to make her comfortable in her own home. Mr.Platig claims that JPW states that the nursing home care is better than what is available at TWI; what he actual says is that the care at the nursing home is better than what was received at TWI. 2. Platig claims that TWI is meeting it's ethical obligations to Mrs. W. Whatever "assets" Mrs. Wierwille has are supposedly covering the expenses, and if that fails, "government programs" will take over. Harve accuses JPW of saying that TWI has abandoned his mother. Apparently TWI is meeting its "legal" obligations, but there sure is disagreement over what "ethical" means. They can't pay for an old lady's nursing care, but they can pay for 24-hour servants for the BOD. How many GS folks had as their Corps assignment "The Wierwille home" or "the Allen Home", or ironing Martindang's clothes? How many staff members are mowing the lawn and cooking meal's over at Rosalie's place? And if there is a shortfall, why no problem... welfare can take over! 3. Harve disputes JP's implication that Mrs. W's care was substandard, suggesting that JP could have brought her into his home at any time and reiterating the claim that JP's unnamed sister had power of attorney and was legally the only one who could make those decisions. Harve claims that JP failed to respond to letters suggesting care options. Another case of He said-She said. However, this claim that JP could have brought her into his home at any time is a distraction. Why should she not have remained in her own home. Does JP Wierwille have access to millions in "Abundant Sharing"? The Wierwille's barely were given time to pay their respects to their brother when he died, since they were barred from the property for all but the smallest period of time. 4. Platig denies that Wanda Wierwille was portrayed as a family spokeperson. Oh geez, just read the friggin' letter that she sent out! While she is never overtly called "family spokesperson" Wanda Wierwille, she is the one who communicates on their behalf. Platig closes by stating that he will not retract anything, but that JPW should. I for one would like to know which sister is the unnamed holder of power-of-attorney. I would like to see JP Wierwille's response to all this. Mr. Platig wants GS to provide a forum for his views, I would like to have equal time on THEIR web site! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear [This message was edited by Oakspear on October 26, 2003 at 21:22.]

CHWESTER!!!! (intoned in James Earl Jones-like voice) I AM YOUR FATHER In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Yes Suz, they are mine...FOR ALL THE CRAP YOU ARE GIVING ME!!!! ;)--> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

He said "fuzz" In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Never mind...just found her! A newbie came into the chat room tonight, we were talking about places we lived, WOW years etc when I mentioned Nebraska. The newbie said that she had been a WOW in Nebraska also. When I told her my real name, she quoted the last two lines of a poem that I had written 20+ years ago. It was Donna! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Eclectic would describe this year's Weenie Roast music, so bring it on! Jazz and country seemed to dominate, but we did enjoy some ELP, and Stevie Ray Vaughn too. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Tom Strange: seems like Greg Lake added "Epitaph" to the end of the live version of Tarkus...Lake was in King Crimson, correct? In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

I, for one, saw the signs prohibiting alcohol. Since this was an event of great spiritual significance, I reasoned that it did not apply to us, just those rank unbelievers. Those not in the household could obviously not handle the spiritual depth of what was going on at the Weenie Roast, but their feelings would be hurt if the sign obviously targeted these poor, "empty" souls. It was obviously the adversary attacking us when the ranger/deputy/cop/boy scout/nascar driver informed us of Tennessee state laws. Boy, don't underestimate the ol' adversary! That's my story and...no, I don't think I'll be sticking to it :D--> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear P.S. Hey Tom Strange...is that a quote from ELP's Tarkus?

Regarding pouring out beverages: While "Son of a Cop" Oakspear was pouring out bottles of beer, Sudo was pouring it down his throat (and you wonder why they insisted that I drive cavity-boy? :D-->) In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Hawk Yer my hero! :D--> (AND I got a dollar!) In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear

Am I the last one to get home? I decided to go on a diet and weight training program since Paw's Fabio-ness made me feel inadequate. Highlights (gleaned from my little black notebook that I carried around): Best Food Name: Sudo's "Sex-In-A-Bowl" Stew" Best Possible Thread Title: Benadryl and Beer Best Wildlife Name: Bonsai Deer Best Out-Of-Context Quote: Bowtwi to Pawtucket - "I wish you would have slept in my bed last night" Best Story: Hawk's Suicidal Deer Tale Most Surprising Revelation: Tied between 1. Sudo's "There is a difference between a redneck and a good ol' boy" and 2. Hawk's explanation that "the south did not lose the Civil War but gave up when they figured out that the Yankees weren't after their women" Saddest Quote: "Pour Out ALL the alcohol" Scariest Quote: "I can't do out-of-state tickets..." Best Cooking Tip: "Milk Slopping is the Key" by Rascal Best Drink: Hawk's Special Recipe with the pears floating in it Entertainment High Point: Sudo dancing for dollars to kazoo accompaniment Tenderest Moment: Rascal receiving her doctorate from an somewhat accredited organization (the Weenie Roast Board of Guv'ners) Funniest Name Mangling: OLEOphile Greatest Act of Toleration: The Christians NOT using the word 'unbeliever' around Sudo & me Seen Ya at The Roast Oakspear [This message was edited by Oakspear on September 23, 2003 at 0:33.] [This message was edited by Oakspear on September 23, 2003 at 1:12.] [This message was edited by Oakspear on September 23, 2003 at 3:39.]

hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm HMM hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm HMM (Pawtucket humming Smoke On The Water) See Ya at The Roast Oakspear

TOMORROW! :)--> :D--> ;)--> :P--> See Ya at The Roast Oakspear

KiloNames: Aren't they outdoor type dogs? See Ya at The Roast Oakspear