Oakspear

In the approximately a year a a half that I was an "innie" who trying to get out with his family intact I seriously examined what the Way taught, starting with Martindale's classes and working my way back to PFAL and Wierwille's other teachings. Initially I used the keys to research that were taught in PFAL. I found numerous sections of WayAP that deviated from what the biblical texts said, or were wrong in the explanation of non-biblical matters, "actual errors" if you will. There were much more that contained leaps of illogic that a third grade wouldn't make and tortured twisting in order to back up a wacky doctrine. I decided I couldn't trust anything Martindale taught. Examination of Wierwille's teachings did not yeild as much craziness as Martindale's, but there were plenty of "actual errors" to go around, as well as misunderstanding of Bullinger, and deviation from the much vaunted "keys". Checking out splinter group websites showed me how multiple ansers could be derived from the same bible using the same "keys". Throw the uncounted Christian denominations into the mix and it's pretty hard to decide which of these competing Christianities to go with. I soon realized that there was nothing about the bible which taken objectively convinced me that it was any truer than any other "holy scripture". I decided to throw it all out and start over in my spiritual quest. I considered myself an agnostic, one who admits to not knowing. Not that I thought that it was impossible to know...just that I didn't know at that time. I became interested in the spirituality of the Celts, partly due to a book written by a family member called Celtic Christianity, and began to explore the beliefs of the old religions. More and more I gravitated toward pagan spirituality in my private thoughts, yet still retaining my agnosticism, my skepticism. Last year I met a woman who was part of a circle of pagans and I began to attend sabbat rituals. Altough my skepticism drives some of them nuts sometimes, I enjoy the fellowship and I find my spiritual need satisfied (for now at least).

Whatever number TWI you want to call it, the nineties were insane. There was a big difference in my observation between what went on before and after Rock of Ages 1993. Way Corps were specifically being trained to detect and eliminate weakness. We got an interim 22nd Corps guy as a WOW leader in 92-93 and a newly graduated 21st guy as branch coordinator in August 93. Both of these guys seemed intent on weeding out the weak There became more of an emphasis on being "disciples" rather than "saints" or "believers", implying that more of a committment was required for the "Joe Believers". The obsession with homosexuals "infiltrating" was paranoia if I ever saw it Suggestions became a thing of the past and "directives" from leaders the norm Interference at every level: from budgets to schedules to marriage Screaming as a teaching method More later :D-->

Hope: No apologies needed sister! Great job expanding and explaining the chronology. In my opinion, one of the resons that GS has become more of a TWI-1 site is the Wierwille fans who post here. Some are enthusiastic cheerleaders for Wierwille. The focus on Wierwille's abuses are a reaction to the elevation of Wierwille and a pining for the good old days. In the early days of Grease Spot, I recall more focus on Martindale, Rivenbark et al. There wasn't much argument there. While there are folks who take the position of "The Way, right or wrong", there wasn't a crowd of people sticking up for Martindale or his wannabes. A great number of ex-wayfers left TWI in the late 80's due to Martindale's demand for allegience (the so-called loyalty oath) and saw in LCM someone who ruined TWI. Many others left in the 90's after being abused by Martindale and his stooges. People in both of those exoduses (exodi?) had no trouble seeing what a b*sta*rd LCM was; some even looked fondly at TWI-1, since there was unquestionably a contrast. The TWI 1, 2, 3 Thread brought out that the bad stuff didn't originate with The Great Forehead, but showed how he learned much at VP's knee. Some of the folks who posted had left in disgust in The Seventies, the supposed golden age when the MOG led revelation and God's grace, and left because they saw that things were rotten even back then. After those brief introductory remarks... ...Good idea for a thread Hope!

Now we have to start arranging the pre-party party among the early arrivals. :D-->

No, you're not being harsh, you're being ignorant, since you don't know why people would stay in, nor do you know the specific circumstances of the "innie" posters. Stick with subjects that you have some knowledge of.

"Tree" could have been a figure of speech for the wood upon which he was crucified. Somertyimes it's "tree", sometimes stauros. Difference of interpretation.

ooh, ooh, ooh...I'll do the HUGE coffeepot!

Goey: I believe that he was using equinox days - 12 hours sunlight to make a generalization, rather than do the exact calculations - that part is okay with me. My observation is that he calls the first hour 6 AM, and the third hour, which should be two hours later he calls 9 AM, which is actually three hours later. His error in addition was enshrined in every publication that dealt with Jewish timekeeping.

Boisterous?

The whole concept of there being a "loophole" that the angels could exploit to go home is great! And that existance would end if God was wrong.

Here's one. Insignificant, but an error; in counting! Wierwille mentions that the hours of prayer were the first, third, sixth, ninth, and twelfth hours. Now I don't know whether or not that is correct, but he then converts those hours to modern time keeping: 6:00 AM, 9:00, Noon, 3:00 PM, and 6:00 PM. Look at it for a second, it doesn't add up: 9:00 AM is three hours after 6:00 AM. The third hour is just two hours after the first hour! Assuming that the sun rises at about 6 AM and sets at 6 PM(which Wierwille did for the purposes of his books): 1st = 6 AM 2nd = 7 AM 3rd = 8 AM 4th = 9 AM 5th = 10 AM 6th = 11 AM 7th = Noon 8th = 1 PM 9th = 2 PM 10th = 3 PM 11th = 4 PM 12th = 5 PM ending at 6PM - which would be sundown around the equinoxes. Every reference that Wierwille made to the hour of the day, other than the first was wrong, using his own assumptions. I noticed this the first time I took PFAL, but didn't think it was a big deal, until this "PFAL is god-breathed" stuff came along

Another area where TWI leaders talked out of both sides of their mouths. I never heard Wierwille or Martindale say that we should not listen to secular music, but if either said something negative about it, then there were plenty of leaders as well as regular folks who were ready to condemn it and ban listening to it. My experience was that most leaders had their own favorite kind of non-TWI music which was okay to listen to, but any other kind was "devilish". They would analyze to death the lyrics of music that they considered evil, but ignore the words on records that they liked.

The corned beef is in the crock pot for tomorrow's dinner! Slan!

Catcup: I think GS runs in cycles much more than WD did. We can go for a while with some threads that cover horrifying first-hand accounts and then swing to a period where the threads can be classed as inane at best. Glad to see you back It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

Oldiesman: Your constant drumbeat in these forums is how things were great when you were "in". The fellowship was sweet, the bible was hot, VP was teachin' "da Word". "I was there!" you proclaim, "It wasn't the way you describe it for me." As much as I am tempted to think you are fantasizing about the supposed good days that never where, I'll usually not challenge your own personal experiences (except in jest :D-->), since I wasn't there where you were, when you were. Now you're pontificating about what people who are currently "in" (and unhappy about it) should do. You don't know jacksh## about TWI-2, the LCM years, the Rivenbark reign, whatever. So why don't you shut the ^^^^ up about things you have no knowledge of? What!!??? Just write a letter? Are you freakin' high? I did that and so did igotout. John's exchanges are enshrined here at GS...pay attention...WHAP (backhanded smack to the head)...he was kicked out! Maybe you don't remember my story. I wrote letters too. Fat lot of good it did me. They don't want to listen, they don't want to change, they don't want to hear "the Word", they want to control and they won't put up with dissent! However it was back in f'n Camelot-on-the-Farm in the seventies, it ain't like that now. Sheesh. Read some threads why doncha! We ARE NOT making this stuff up! Those "innies" who post here have good reasons to be "in" and to be part of GS, so back off a couple of paces and have a little compassion. It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

I watched Dogma tonight: funny and thought provoking! I about crapped my pants when Loki shot the guy on the bus. It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

Hey Steve!, how am I going to flirt with your fiancee if you keep coming back after it's been announced that you've left? Geez It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

While I agree that Donna M is fair game as a leader in TWI, and her continued residence in the high rent district of "HQ" is a legitimate topic of discussion; baseless accusations and speculation cheapens us and dilutes the message. She doesn't deserve kid glove treatment, nor any kind of respect for her "privacy" IMHO, but aren't there enough real bad things about her and other TWI poobahs without having to make stuff up? It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

oh yeah baby ;)--> It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

Thanks for the etiquette lesson! :D--> It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

I only checked one source, but blueletterbible.com does not show that "death" is plural in Isaiah 53.It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

B.O.C. prescience... It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

The sun will rise tomorrow saith he who witnesseth the setting of the sun. It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

Sir Todd-a-Lot: Good points about the doctrinal thread. making it a little harder to find kind of keeps out the riff-raff ;)-->. Hmmm, but I managed to get in, so it can't be too exclusive! Even though I voted to move the doctrinal discussion to the doctrinal forum, I'd hate to see "doctrinal" viewed as the back alley garbage can of Grease Spot. For the most part the doctrinal forum has been somewhat self-policing. Posters there generally stick to either biblical texts or some form of logic in making their points. Not to say that there hasn't been personal attacks and assorted craziness (the recurrent theme of free will vs. determinism evokes some heat and the subject of what denomination killed more people over the centuries won't ever really die Lately the quality has somewhat diluted, threads get started about inane subjects (okay "inane" is my owm perception, totally subjective) or arguments are supposedly settled with "that's just what I believe" or "God told me". A-friggin'-men. Contribute something to the thread for God's sake, or just shut up It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear

It certainly accelerated the process It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight Oakspear