Oakspear

I saw Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back over the weekend. Stupid, yet funny. "Oh my God, do you get free refills with that?"

I always wanted to understand the bible and to know God. The Way posed as a group that could help me do both. I was impressed at my first fellowship by the confidence of the people there, that intrigued me. During the PFAL class Wierwille does a pretty good job of baiting the hook for those who want to understand the bible by demonstrating how to read what is written. He teaches basic keys to understanding the bible: read what is written, read the context, understand the culture, fundamentals of Greek and Hebrew. He started out so simple and basic. It was so self-evident when you just read the bible. He built a foundation of trust early in the class and gradually, oh so subtly introduces things that are not clearly written in the "text". Before you know it definitions and whole theologies are springing from thin air, or at least from very shaky foundations. But I hardly noticed. Mixed in with the "intellectual" approach was pure emotion: it's "Christ in you!" and ended with the crescendo of speaking in tongues out loud in that chaotic group setting. Well that just sealed my fate.

Apology accepted :D-->. But really, I do have to get to bed. I have some thoughts on this that I'd like to post, but I'll wait until tomorrow, after a full day of capitalistic activity

Okay Tree...I was not conned by the novelty of someone actually opening a bible...I said that's what hooked me. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I should have said "what attracted me". How I was conned is a long story. Maybe I'll take the time to post it tomorrow, it's midnight here and I work for a living :D--> or maybe you'll figure your own mind out before then. Asking for opinions and then shooting them down without really seeing the depth of the reasoning is probably not what you're trying to do NLBT. I hope you get the answers that you're looking for

The reasons for being "hooked" in the first place are varied: love of God manifested in peoples' lives, bible taught "accurately", committment level, etc. Mine was the novelty of seeing someone actually read the bible to find answers, rather than in one's own philosophy or in religious fancies that were not biblically based.

Well NLBT, I can tell you how I fell for it, but that might not be the same as for you. I suggest trying to remember what attracted you to TWI in the first place. Perhaps whatever that was that attracted you was important enough that it distracted you from seeing areas that were not so great. Were there times when you knew doctrine or practice was wrong, but you compromised, or looked the other way because of the perceived good in TWI?

We questioned whatever we did before TWI, but somehow got convinced that all our questioning brought us to the TRUTH...no more questions needed Welcome to GS

Kit: Cats keep us humble. Cats keep mice at bay. That's enough as far as I'm concerned.

I vote for the cat that lived in the Metropolitan Ave Way Home in 1980 in Richmond Hill (or was it Kew Gardens?) New York. He had so much love when he ran those mice off.

Slight Derailment for boring Way Tree info: According to my hazy memory of the old Way Tree class, they had a corporate structure set up before the numbers ever warranted it. Twig Area: 3 or more twigs, less than 7 Branch: 7 or more twigs Area: 4 branches Section: 4 or more areas Territory: 4 or more sections or a lrage geographic area within a limb Limb: state, no matter how many twigs or grads were in it Trunk: country; although I don't recall whether any other countries received the "trunk" designation For example when I took PFAL in NY in '78 Long Island had 8-10 branches grouped under an Area Coordinator. There were 6 or 7 areas in NY State, although I don't think they all had the large number of branches that LI had. Eventually they started calling each of the areas "territories". Eventually it seemed like territory coordinators were like ex10 said, mainly for communication purposes, an urban branch coordinator might oversee the "outlying" twigs in his part of the state in addition to his city branch. I don't recall ever hearing of someone with the title of Section Leader or Coordinator. In the '90's the titles became more diluted. Any area with more than one fellowship was called a branch.

Our family decided that we would not, under any circumstances, bring a sick child to fellowship. When we kept someone home, one of us parents would also stay home. We didn't wait until they had bronchitus either, ;)--> - if they had a cold or sniffles, or just felt run down, we figured that bed was the best place for 'em. At one point the Branch Coordinator told us that we had chronic illness, or some such nonsense, and that we needed to figure out why and get it fixed. Unknown to him I started tracking on my spiffy Way International "Executive Planner" every time someone in my family missed a fellowship due to illness. I added all the times Mr. Spiritual Branch Coordinator and his wife got sick too. Several months later he brought it up again. I whipped out my calendar and showed him that considering that there were eight people in my house, we weren't sick any more than anyone else, and actually he and his wife were sick more days per person than anyone in my family. The gist of his response was that I was rebellious for tracking that stuff on the calendar and that I just should have obeyed him. He ignored the facts that I had compiled.

LLP: In the past you have claimed that TWI leadership has no problem with you checking out ex-Way sites or even posting here. If that is so, there should be no problem giving information that would get other "innies" thrown out. That's why insurgent and wayward wayfer and other "innies" don't give out private info, because they know that it would cause problems. You say it won't.

Rascal: Yes, doctorates will be issued again, perhaps some ordinations as well. But then again, my degree specialty is b.s.

Insurgent: I remember the whole "correct title for God when praying" thing. I generally called him "God" when praying out loud. I was reproved for that. For a while I purposely would use the longest "God title" I could think of (like 'You Who Bountifully Supply Our Every Need') to see if anyone would correct me. Usually I would end my public prayers with "in the name of Christ Jesus". Our Branch Coordinator told me that it should be "Jesus Christ" and "instructed" me on how "Christ" was a title, and not Jesus' last name. I was wondering if he thought I was an idiot, and asked him what that had to do with what order I said the words "Jesus" and "Christ"? He reversed himself a week later.

Good point CW, there are not many other denominations that have all authority vested in one person. The Way International was Weirwille's playground from day one. He called all the shots, he made all the major decisions, and his teachings were paramount. Who thought that Weirwille was claiming anything less than being the spiritual head of TWI? He made a big mistake in appointing a moron-jock (no offense to any of you jocks, or any morons :D-->) who didn't have the organizational and people skills (and b.s. skills) that he had. What happened to TWI in the 80's and again in the 90's was inevitable due to its concentratuion of power.

rascal: Check PT please

Well, I doubt my date would appreciate me dumping her to go out bar-hopping (especially "titty-bar" hopping)- but we'll look for youse in the lobby. We should be arriving at Midway at 6:30 PM Friday, I'm not sure how long it will take us to get to the hotel. Chinny: I'm pretty sure I still have your cell # from last year, but I'll email you if I've lost it

I really hate to even sound like I'm sticking up for Oldiesman, but I see his point, while not actually agreeing with it. I started a similar thread last year and was beat up on by my friend Rascal at the time too! :(--> When you read only the letter that we have access to, it doesn't really come off as all that bad. But what you miss is the context and the follow-up. What you also miss is the actual text of a letter that uses the words "swear a loyalty oath" or anything like it. While those who had alternate letters sent to them are trustworthy in my book, memory isn't always the most reliabale thing in the world. I'd really like to see one of those letters that used the term "swear a loyalty oath". Regarding the phrase "don't give me any of that loyalty to God crap", if LCM was a genuine man who stood for God, and Geer wasn't, why wouldn't the Way Corps want to stand by his side rather than with someone who opposed him? If the leader of the group that you have toiled and sweated for, and given your money to, was being attacked, it would be cowardly to stay neutral by saying "I stand with God, not with any man". But LCM wasn't a genuine man who stood for God, was he? We knew that he was off, so hearing him ask for allegience was just the last straw, wasn't it? Back in the days when we thought Wierwille was the MOG, would we have been so indignant if Wierwille had made similar demands in similar situations. Probably not IMHO, because Wierwille came across (deceitfully, I believe) as worthy of loyalty, while Martindale came across as an idiot. The strong arm tactics, bullying and disrespect didn't help either, I'm sure. Martindale and his stooges did nothing to earn the loyalty that he craved, but did his utmost to drive good people away. By the way, in the "Galatians Tapes/Leaders Tapes I & II" Martindale quotes himself as saying 'don't give me any of that loyalty to God crap".

imablver: That's my uncle Tim. When you're done email or PT me and let me know what you think. He's also done a book called Celtic Quest as well as a book which describes an imaginary retreat hosted by St. Patrick. His emphasis is very much Celtic spirituality within the Catholic framework. EWB: Hmm...wonder how I gave that impression? Well sometimes I play devil's advocate if I see what I perceive as illogic getting out of hand.

In the approximately a year a a half that I was an "innie" who trying to get out with his family intact I seriously examined what the Way taught, starting with Martindale's classes and working my way back to PFAL and Wierwille's other teachings. Initially I used the keys to research that were taught in PFAL. I found numerous sections of WayAP that deviated from what the biblical texts said, or were wrong in the explanation of non-biblical matters, "actual errors" if you will. There were much more that contained leaps of illogic that a third grade wouldn't make and tortured twisting in order to back up a wacky doctrine. I decided I couldn't trust anything Martindale taught. Examination of Wierwille's teachings did not yeild as much craziness as Martindale's, but there were plenty of "actual errors" to go around, as well as misunderstanding of Bullinger, and deviation from the much vaunted "keys". Checking out splinter group websites showed me how multiple ansers could be derived from the same bible using the same "keys". Throw the uncounted Christian denominations into the mix and it's pretty hard to decide which of these competing Christianities to go with. I soon realized that there was nothing about the bible which taken objectively convinced me that it was any truer than any other "holy scripture". I decided to throw it all out and start over in my spiritual quest. I considered myself an agnostic, one who admits to not knowing. Not that I thought that it was impossible to know...just that I didn't know at that time. I became interested in the spirituality of the Celts, partly due to a book written by a family member called Celtic Christianity, and began to explore the beliefs of the old religions. More and more I gravitated toward pagan spirituality in my private thoughts, yet still retaining my agnosticism, my skepticism. Last year I met a woman who was part of a circle of pagans and I began to attend sabbat rituals. Altough my skepticism drives some of them nuts sometimes, I enjoy the fellowship and I find my spiritual need satisfied (for now at least).

Whatever number TWI you want to call it, the nineties were insane. There was a big difference in my observation between what went on before and after Rock of Ages 1993. Way Corps were specifically being trained to detect and eliminate weakness. We got an interim 22nd Corps guy as a WOW leader in 92-93 and a newly graduated 21st guy as branch coordinator in August 93. Both of these guys seemed intent on weeding out the weak There became more of an emphasis on being "disciples" rather than "saints" or "believers", implying that more of a committment was required for the "Joe Believers". The obsession with homosexuals "infiltrating" was paranoia if I ever saw it Suggestions became a thing of the past and "directives" from leaders the norm Interference at every level: from budgets to schedules to marriage Screaming as a teaching method More later :D-->

Hope: No apologies needed sister! Great job expanding and explaining the chronology. In my opinion, one of the resons that GS has become more of a TWI-1 site is the Wierwille fans who post here. Some are enthusiastic cheerleaders for Wierwille. The focus on Wierwille's abuses are a reaction to the elevation of Wierwille and a pining for the good old days. In the early days of Grease Spot, I recall more focus on Martindale, Rivenbark et al. There wasn't much argument there. While there are folks who take the position of "The Way, right or wrong", there wasn't a crowd of people sticking up for Martindale or his wannabes. A great number of ex-wayfers left TWI in the late 80's due to Martindale's demand for allegience (the so-called loyalty oath) and saw in LCM someone who ruined TWI. Many others left in the 90's after being abused by Martindale and his stooges. People in both of those exoduses (exodi?) had no trouble seeing what a b*sta*rd LCM was; some even looked fondly at TWI-1, since there was unquestionably a contrast. The TWI 1, 2, 3 Thread brought out that the bad stuff didn't originate with The Great Forehead, but showed how he learned much at VP's knee. Some of the folks who posted had left in disgust in The Seventies, the supposed golden age when the MOG led revelation and God's grace, and left because they saw that things were rotten even back then. After those brief introductory remarks... ...Good idea for a thread Hope!

Now we have to start arranging the pre-party party among the early arrivals. :D-->

No, you're not being harsh, you're being ignorant, since you don't know why people would stay in, nor do you know the specific circumstances of the "innie" posters. Stick with subjects that you have some knowledge of.

"Tree" could have been a figure of speech for the wood upon which he was crucified. Somertyimes it's "tree", sometimes stauros. Difference of interpretation.