Oakspear

Um...the blues aren't depressing...not most blues anyway...but I convinced Steve! and Chinson to go to a blues club last year and they weren't impressed ;)-->

Hey Zix...I'm not a strip joint kind of guy (anymore ;)-->)...and I look really bad in a bikini - so maybe you and me can form the core of the "third way" and grab some adult beverages where everybody is fully clothed. :D--> Susie, my girlfriend will be attending as well and has made it known that she is sticking close by me, this being her first exposure to the Grease Spot gang

No, this is not an April Fool's Day thread On several occassions I had TWI women tell me that they were "believing for bigger breasts". These weren't prepubescent lassies either, in each situation the women were over thirty (at least) . Maybe it goes back to that story in Christian Family & Sex where Wierwille talks about the woman with different sized breasts who "believes" for them to be the same size. Maybe it was the men of TWI following the leader and having unreal expectations of the ladies...I don't know. --> The first time I heard this was at Martindale's first advanced class. A woman (who was there with her husband) told several of us how she had been flat-chested and "just knew" that her fiancee at the time would be "blessed" if she had larger breasts. So she "believed", and what do ya know...they grew! And they got married :D--> Another time a recently divorced woman who had just started dating told me that she was "believing" for bigger breasts because when she got involved in a sexual relationship she wanted to "bless" her partner. Neither my ex-wife, nor anyone I dated before had an ample bosom, and neither they nor I were "believing" for growth in that area. I just thought that "adding another cubit" in this part of the anatomy by "believing" was pretty wacky. -->

This thread sure has taken an interesting turn. Thanks ex-Corps folks for broadening the picture a bit. In my observation, there were several less-than-optimum behaviors and mindsets feeding off each other. There are always people who want to be told what to do, who couldn't make a decision for themselves if their lives depended on it. To these kind of people a twig coordinator is just another person who they can look to for all the answers. Only they don't follow through, they don't follow your advice, but are there again the next week with the same or a similar problem. When you don't supply the answers that they like, they shop around. Then a Way Corps grad shows up. All new and shiney and zealous for the Word. No matter what this individual Way Corps grad holds in their heart, the propaganda from HQ is that a special breed of cat is coming to town. Way Corps is showing up. Someone trained and committed and (the implication is) smarter than you, more committed than you, and crammed full of more bible than you'll ever know. So naturally the always-have-a-problem folks swarm all over the new WC grad. The other folks, who may have gotten along just fine, think that maybe they should get some counsel from this wise Way Corps grad. Maybe the WC grad starts believing his own press releases! Most of my pre-1990 expewrience with Corps grads was pretty neutral: I didn't bother them and they didn't bother me. I saw good & bad and smart & stupid and loving & unloving in about the same ratios as the general population. Post-1990 was different. Post-1990, even the seemingly nice folks just had to stick their nose in our affairs. We had to have meetings about setting goals, and "report back" on all manner of life's details. Nothing we did was too small to be scrutinized by our "leaders". I know that most of them were just following orders from above, but it's tough to see the good in someone whose doing surprise inspections or demanding schedules.

def got the joke :D-->

My ex-wife and I had marital problems, many people inside and outside TWI do. TWI didn't cause them, but they made them worse, and certainly did nothing to help. TWI leaders gave contradictory advice to each of us, and a third version of counsel when they spoke to us together. TWI leaders invaded our home under color of (godly) authority and disruted our routines. TWI leaders encouraged each of us (especially my ex-wife) to complain about the shortcomings of the other. TWI leaders constantly fed my ex-wife verses about withdrawing, separating, not being unequally yoked, in the context of a marriage. TWI leaders would tell us that we were to agree together on how to run our household, then would "direct" my ex-wife to take actions that were in opposition to what we had agreed on. I'm sure I'll think of more

I saw Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back over the weekend. Stupid, yet funny. "Oh my God, do you get free refills with that?"

I always wanted to understand the bible and to know God. The Way posed as a group that could help me do both. I was impressed at my first fellowship by the confidence of the people there, that intrigued me. During the PFAL class Wierwille does a pretty good job of baiting the hook for those who want to understand the bible by demonstrating how to read what is written. He teaches basic keys to understanding the bible: read what is written, read the context, understand the culture, fundamentals of Greek and Hebrew. He started out so simple and basic. It was so self-evident when you just read the bible. He built a foundation of trust early in the class and gradually, oh so subtly introduces things that are not clearly written in the "text". Before you know it definitions and whole theologies are springing from thin air, or at least from very shaky foundations. But I hardly noticed. Mixed in with the "intellectual" approach was pure emotion: it's "Christ in you!" and ended with the crescendo of speaking in tongues out loud in that chaotic group setting. Well that just sealed my fate.

Apology accepted :D-->. But really, I do have to get to bed. I have some thoughts on this that I'd like to post, but I'll wait until tomorrow, after a full day of capitalistic activity

Okay Tree...I was not conned by the novelty of someone actually opening a bible...I said that's what hooked me. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I should have said "what attracted me". How I was conned is a long story. Maybe I'll take the time to post it tomorrow, it's midnight here and I work for a living :D--> or maybe you'll figure your own mind out before then. Asking for opinions and then shooting them down without really seeing the depth of the reasoning is probably not what you're trying to do NLBT. I hope you get the answers that you're looking for

The reasons for being "hooked" in the first place are varied: love of God manifested in peoples' lives, bible taught "accurately", committment level, etc. Mine was the novelty of seeing someone actually read the bible to find answers, rather than in one's own philosophy or in religious fancies that were not biblically based.

Well NLBT, I can tell you how I fell for it, but that might not be the same as for you. I suggest trying to remember what attracted you to TWI in the first place. Perhaps whatever that was that attracted you was important enough that it distracted you from seeing areas that were not so great. Were there times when you knew doctrine or practice was wrong, but you compromised, or looked the other way because of the perceived good in TWI?

We questioned whatever we did before TWI, but somehow got convinced that all our questioning brought us to the TRUTH...no more questions needed Welcome to GS

Kit: Cats keep us humble. Cats keep mice at bay. That's enough as far as I'm concerned.

I vote for the cat that lived in the Metropolitan Ave Way Home in 1980 in Richmond Hill (or was it Kew Gardens?) New York. He had so much love when he ran those mice off.

Slight Derailment for boring Way Tree info: According to my hazy memory of the old Way Tree class, they had a corporate structure set up before the numbers ever warranted it. Twig Area: 3 or more twigs, less than 7 Branch: 7 or more twigs Area: 4 branches Section: 4 or more areas Territory: 4 or more sections or a lrage geographic area within a limb Limb: state, no matter how many twigs or grads were in it Trunk: country; although I don't recall whether any other countries received the "trunk" designation For example when I took PFAL in NY in '78 Long Island had 8-10 branches grouped under an Area Coordinator. There were 6 or 7 areas in NY State, although I don't think they all had the large number of branches that LI had. Eventually they started calling each of the areas "territories". Eventually it seemed like territory coordinators were like ex10 said, mainly for communication purposes, an urban branch coordinator might oversee the "outlying" twigs in his part of the state in addition to his city branch. I don't recall ever hearing of someone with the title of Section Leader or Coordinator. In the '90's the titles became more diluted. Any area with more than one fellowship was called a branch.

Our family decided that we would not, under any circumstances, bring a sick child to fellowship. When we kept someone home, one of us parents would also stay home. We didn't wait until they had bronchitus either, ;)--> - if they had a cold or sniffles, or just felt run down, we figured that bed was the best place for 'em. At one point the Branch Coordinator told us that we had chronic illness, or some such nonsense, and that we needed to figure out why and get it fixed. Unknown to him I started tracking on my spiffy Way International "Executive Planner" every time someone in my family missed a fellowship due to illness. I added all the times Mr. Spiritual Branch Coordinator and his wife got sick too. Several months later he brought it up again. I whipped out my calendar and showed him that considering that there were eight people in my house, we weren't sick any more than anyone else, and actually he and his wife were sick more days per person than anyone in my family. The gist of his response was that I was rebellious for tracking that stuff on the calendar and that I just should have obeyed him. He ignored the facts that I had compiled.

LLP: In the past you have claimed that TWI leadership has no problem with you checking out ex-Way sites or even posting here. If that is so, there should be no problem giving information that would get other "innies" thrown out. That's why insurgent and wayward wayfer and other "innies" don't give out private info, because they know that it would cause problems. You say it won't.

Rascal: Yes, doctorates will be issued again, perhaps some ordinations as well. But then again, my degree specialty is b.s.

Insurgent: I remember the whole "correct title for God when praying" thing. I generally called him "God" when praying out loud. I was reproved for that. For a while I purposely would use the longest "God title" I could think of (like 'You Who Bountifully Supply Our Every Need') to see if anyone would correct me. Usually I would end my public prayers with "in the name of Christ Jesus". Our Branch Coordinator told me that it should be "Jesus Christ" and "instructed" me on how "Christ" was a title, and not Jesus' last name. I was wondering if he thought I was an idiot, and asked him what that had to do with what order I said the words "Jesus" and "Christ"? He reversed himself a week later.

Good point CW, there are not many other denominations that have all authority vested in one person. The Way International was Weirwille's playground from day one. He called all the shots, he made all the major decisions, and his teachings were paramount. Who thought that Weirwille was claiming anything less than being the spiritual head of TWI? He made a big mistake in appointing a moron-jock (no offense to any of you jocks, or any morons :D-->) who didn't have the organizational and people skills (and b.s. skills) that he had. What happened to TWI in the 80's and again in the 90's was inevitable due to its concentratuion of power.

rascal: Check PT please

Well, I doubt my date would appreciate me dumping her to go out bar-hopping (especially "titty-bar" hopping)- but we'll look for youse in the lobby. We should be arriving at Midway at 6:30 PM Friday, I'm not sure how long it will take us to get to the hotel. Chinny: I'm pretty sure I still have your cell # from last year, but I'll email you if I've lost it

I really hate to even sound like I'm sticking up for Oldiesman, but I see his point, while not actually agreeing with it. I started a similar thread last year and was beat up on by my friend Rascal at the time too! :(--> When you read only the letter that we have access to, it doesn't really come off as all that bad. But what you miss is the context and the follow-up. What you also miss is the actual text of a letter that uses the words "swear a loyalty oath" or anything like it. While those who had alternate letters sent to them are trustworthy in my book, memory isn't always the most reliabale thing in the world. I'd really like to see one of those letters that used the term "swear a loyalty oath". Regarding the phrase "don't give me any of that loyalty to God crap", if LCM was a genuine man who stood for God, and Geer wasn't, why wouldn't the Way Corps want to stand by his side rather than with someone who opposed him? If the leader of the group that you have toiled and sweated for, and given your money to, was being attacked, it would be cowardly to stay neutral by saying "I stand with God, not with any man". But LCM wasn't a genuine man who stood for God, was he? We knew that he was off, so hearing him ask for allegience was just the last straw, wasn't it? Back in the days when we thought Wierwille was the MOG, would we have been so indignant if Wierwille had made similar demands in similar situations. Probably not IMHO, because Wierwille came across (deceitfully, I believe) as worthy of loyalty, while Martindale came across as an idiot. The strong arm tactics, bullying and disrespect didn't help either, I'm sure. Martindale and his stooges did nothing to earn the loyalty that he craved, but did his utmost to drive good people away. By the way, in the "Galatians Tapes/Leaders Tapes I & II" Martindale quotes himself as saying 'don't give me any of that loyalty to God crap".

imablver: That's my uncle Tim. When you're done email or PT me and let me know what you think. He's also done a book called Celtic Quest as well as a book which describes an imaginary retreat hosted by St. Patrick. His emphasis is very much Celtic spirituality within the Catholic framework. EWB: Hmm...wonder how I gave that impression? Well sometimes I play devil's advocate if I see what I perceive as illogic getting out of hand.