Oakspear

Can I redirect? Thanks :D--> For those who were around during the "loyalty letter" days, did you already know that Martindale was "off"? If so, was the letter just the straw that broke the camel's back? Before the letter came out, did you think he was going to change, improve? Leave? From the testimony of those who lived through it, the letter doesn't seem to be a bolt out of the blue, or an isolated bit of ungodliness, but the culmination of much crap.

That's right Hope, where do you begin? For one thing, you almost had to have a grounding in PFAL for it to make even a minimal amount of sense. Another is, as was mentioned, the screaming confrontation starts the first session. Why would a new person want to subject themself to that? For a "foundational" class, it assumes a pretty high level of committment. The pseudo-science in there is pretty wacky: the quick dividing of the continents by frozen methane under the ocean (or something like that), the complete misrepresentation of the Big Bang and the salt water womb around the universe would drive off anyone with a high school education. The whole "Face of the Deep" thing was pretty interesting. Even if you believe that the bible to be literally true in it's physical description of the cosmos, Martindale screws it all up. The most fun I had while an "undercover innie" back in 2001 was when I was asked to teach the "Face of the Deep" segment at fellowship one night. I ignored his syllabus and taught it straight from the bible and came up with a radically different version than Martindale did. What was amazing was that I had several people come up to me and say that they never understood that segment until I explained it!!!! --> I mentioned on another thread about the lesbian devil segment. I worked that section for over a year and proved that Martindale's conclusions were incorrect. The definitions that he gave for words was demonstrably wrong, and his conclusions were not supported by his supposed evidense. When I presented all of this to my region coordinator, who was teaching the class live (i.e. reading the syllabus) he said "You may not be able to document his conclusions, but it has to be right because of what we know about homosexuality".

When I got to the "Devil in a Blue Dress" :D--> segment of WayAP, I thought "what the f***?" I did work it. Backwards and forwards, for a year and a half. The response I got from my region coordinator when I presented my findings to him was "Even if we can't document it, it's got to be true because of what we know about homosexuality"

This sounds like one of those things that didn't make the cut into the book, so we'dhave to depend on one of the few who have the PFAL film or video to check for us. As I recall, he didn't mention Barth by name, but it was implied.

"...where were they going without ever knowing the way?" Is that a line from the song by Fastball, Raf?

Don't do anything illegal or immoral until I get there!

As I recall, we always managed to eat okay, but not sure how. --> Our finanacial problems manifested themselves in crappy furniture and zero decor in the places we lived. It was like we were monks or something. The biggest factor in our lack of financial abundance was the lack of a consistant job by our interim Way Corps WOW Family Coordinator. The rest of us worked continually throughout the year, but our fearless leader went through a number of them with gaps in between. The worst was right after we moved to another city mid-year. He got a "job" putting a lawn and doing some landscaping at the apartment we rented in exchange for a break on the rent. We were on a financial plan where we each contributed our whole paycheck to the family fund, and the treasurer paid the bills and doled out money for incidentals. Our leader, as it turned out, did not do a lick of work on the lawn, but went back to sleep each morning after we all went to our jobs. This went on for several months. Eventually the landlord figured out that he wasn't getting a lawn, and demanded the money that he had deducted from the rent. Since leader-boy didn't immediately get another job, the three of us had to cover the back rent, as well as paying the full monthly rent until our mini-MOG started working. I'm kind of fuzzy about how much longer he went without a job, but it may have been another month. His dad lent us a sum of money so that we could get caught up on our bills. We paid him back out of the family fund before the year ended, but our leader claimed that his dad was giving the money to him as a gift. I'm sure that if we checked with his dad we would have found out differently. So not only did we carry him for 2-3 months while he slept in dreaming about lawns, and while he was out-of-work for another month, but we had to borrow money to cover his butt, and then handed him the money that we had saved up to get us out of debt. Double (maybe triple) screwed. Yup, that was abundance

Even people who have no vested interest in staying with TWI (i.e. not involved in the abuses) will sometimes rationalize staying in despite knowledge of problems. Look at people who stayed in after the April 2000 lawsuit announcement. TWI announced that Martindale was having an "affair" with a married woman, they kicked him out, yet still run his class. And people STILL stick with TWI.

I'm sure I could stump the dj...but my preferred music tends to be tough to dance to...so I'll let the professional do his or her job :D-->

Heck, I wish I could have known then what I know now :D--> When Wierwille died, and the POP was read and the poopoo hit the fan, and the letters went out, and lines were drawn in the sand....I was not involved in TWI. We had a run-in with our Limb Coordinators and just stopped going to stuff for a while. We weren't against TWI, or Wierwille, or PFAL...we just thought that the LC was a jerk. In 1990 we decide that's it's time to go back. Our oldest was old enough to take PFAL, we were kind of missing the fellowship, the Rock of Ages, etc. We knew people on both sides of the fence. Frankly, neither side did a very good job of communicating to me why they came down on the side that they did. I didn't hear any stories like Rascal's or others here at GS, just some vague things about the Trustees "not coming back to the Word", but nothing specific. The LCM loyalists weren't much better. Of course Martindale's "Galatians Tapes" were full of vague generalities. Oh, they were very specific about what devil spirits Martrindale claimed Geer was full of, but short on details. I took a shot and stuck with the "official" TWI, reasoning that Martindale was Wierwille's appointee, and Mrs Wierwille stuck with Martindale... If I'd only known. I wouldn't have thrown in with that adulterous, spitting, delusional, "MOG". I would have spared my family all that grief. Know then what I know now. No question. I'd have never gotten re-involved.

I seriously doubt there is someone in every branch tasked to monitoring GS and other sites. What I do think happens is that if someone arouses suspicion by their words or actions, then the search for incriminating posts begins. Or if someone identifies him- or herself as an "innie", then word is sent out to the "field" to watch for certain things. In my case I loudly broadcast my problems with TWI doctrine and practice. My ex-wife, twig coordinator, region coordinator and a member of the Board of Trustees all knew very specifically what my biggest problems were...because I told them! Although I gave scant personal information, and bounced among three handles, my writing style is recognizable, and that helped them figure out that it was me.

Looks good if you didn't know just how ungodly Martindale himself was. Looks real pious unless you knew how Martindale and his fellow top-dog leaders were more like the prophets of Baal than Elijah. I think that this was a wakeup call to many that The Way wasn't "our" ministry. In the seventies there was an illusion that while Wierwille was "The Teacher", we were all equal partners in "moving the Word". That fantasy was squashed with these letters and the follow-up. In the nineties, no matter how "sweet" a local fellowship may have been, there was no delusion that we had any rights; we were merely tolerated.

I'm not one of those who believe that medical doctors are infallible, or that there is absolutely no merit in alternative healing or treatments...but... ...I have a problem with the proponents of this stuff telling me that it will absolutely work all of the time and with listening to the pseudo-scientific b.s. that often accompanies it. In my observation Some of these "remedies" seem to work only in the mind of the recipient, with no objective or repeatable phenomena Some apparently bring results some of the time, with no understanding of why they work when they do and don't when they don't Some really do work, and are ignored by the scientific and medical establishment either because of competition or because the mechanism that affects the cure doesn't fit any known theories But if it works for you...go for it.On the other hand...pragmatic fallacy

I was "confronted" by the region coordinator, his wife and the HFC one night. They had printouts of posts that I had authored under a previous handle. They had compared questions that I had about certain Way doctrines with postings on the same subject on GS. I was thrown out several days later because I "did not believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction". I'd like to suggest that "The WayGB" is more than just some staff dweebs sitting in front of computers all day printing out posts. After all, someone has to make the connection between the poster on GS and the flesh and bllod person in a Way fellowship The WayGB is anyone who is willing to turn in the person who sits next to them at fellowship, or even a family member, because they agree with the goals and methods of TWI. The WayGB is anyone who believes that disagreement is tantamount to rebellion and devil-spirit possession. The WayGB is anyone who will take a private conversation or correspondance and turn it over to "leadership". With the exit in the last several years of all but a few who are repulsed by TWI's actions, I'm sure that they don't have as much to do, but they are alive and well.

ex10 - gifts are good, especially when they come from the heart - it's when they are mandated and hemmed in - that's when they're a problem.

makes me glad I never shop Wally-Mart

Hope R: I thought it was a Word in Biz weekend, but maybe not. They were not going after spin-offs and ex-Way people only. He had a list of totally unrelated organizations that used "The Way", or "Power for...." something. One example was a magazine put out by the American TaeKwonDo Association called "The Way Magazine". (The word "Do" in Korean means "the way".)I {blushing in shame} was the one who alerted them to that particualr one, so my ears perked up when I heard Allen talking about it. After a letter from TWI's lawyers they changed the name of the mag to The Way of TaeKwonDo

If that is an example of your thought process, then you are in trouble, Pat. Disagreeing with you and your point of view is "obviously" working for TWI? Get a grip.BTW, I hope you win, your grandstanding and self-promotion notwithstanding

In the early 90's a rev from Minnesota was coming down to teach Rise & Expansion. We called his wife for sugesstions for a gift (we didn't know him very well, so we wanted to know what would "bless" him) She faxed us a list that had been made up ahead of time. Very detailed as to what his likes and dislikes were (e.g. sweatshirts and jackets are fine, but no local sports team logos) Not like they expected gifts or anything :D-->

Zix: I'll buy you a drink if you can use the word "contrapositive" in your toast

Oh I get it Pjroberge...we're supposed to check our opinions and good sense at the door when an ex-wayfer gets tangled up with TWI.

Which is the most loving of "Doctor" Wierwille's signatures?

cast of characters...I love it! Of the sixteen GSers listed on page one (including the bride & groom) I've actually laid eyes on eight, so's I can identify half! Lookin' forward to meeting the rest

Chinny - we're Grease Spotters - we argue about everything! :D--> I'd wager my old PFAL book that all of us will behave once we get to the hotel and bask in the love ;)--> ...really

Sorry Steve! ;)-->