Oakspear

ya got a point there Dorothy?

Of course Satori is "calling as it is" as well. Satori's "fish size" really has nothing to do with the relative validity of his statement.

Sometimes you'll hear a non-Christian (especially one who's never been involved in a church) ask "Saved from what?" In TWI we were taught that being "saved" means being "made whole", since that is what the Greek word translated "saved" allegedly means, alluding to receiving the spirit, which makes us a whole: body, soul & spirit. We were also taught that saved = born again = become a son of God. We were further taught that benefits of this was that we were "going to heaven and all hell can't stop us" and that we reaped the benefits of Jesus' life, death and resurrection, including access to physical and mental wholeness (by his stripes we were healed) We were further taught that we got saved by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead. Are there other versions in Christianity about what exactly "being saved" is? There are plenty of you GSers who have moved onto other Christian groups and churches. What say ye?

Chas: regarding the so-called stages of reproof - 1. Confront the individual. 2. If they don't change or have a second offence, confront them with someone in the household. 3. If they don't change or have a third offence, confront them with the household fellowship (twig). I often heard it taught this way, but very, very seldom saw it in action either, at least not when "leaders" were involved. Person-to-person it usually got resolved at stage 2. When a "leader" was "reproving" you at stage one, it was often just his opinion or interpretation of what the bible said. Stage two was supposed to be take a witness or two, which was usually the "leader's" spouse. When it came to stage three, it was never the whole fellowship, but a handpicked group who could be counted on to back up the "leader", no matter what he said. By this time, the "sin" was not only what was originally confronted, but "disobedience" as well. The only time I was ever brought "before the church" was when I was put on probation for six months. The decision had already been made, but we were dragged in front of our whole fellowship to be made an example of.

Here's the link: http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=5301 Why? Because you don't like it? This thread is not "silly" in the sense that "Why I Reject Alice" and other like threads are, but covers an issue that the poster wants to make public. Oh, like thoughts about GS weren't posted at JWO. Where's your vaunted respect for free speech? Maybe because the folks at JWO, ex-GSers and ex-JW's alike, aren't really interested in a discussion, but in indiscriminate cussing and name-calling. Take your spoon and stir your .... somewhere else

It's not rocket science, but it's not theology either :P--> Your theory, Rachel, might be correct if God was reproducing like a human or animal does. God didn't have sex with Mary in order to produce a God-man hybrid. Something else to keep in mind: God is spirit, so, according to your "after his seed" logic, then Jesus shouild be spirit too, right? Or at least half spirit, since Mary was human. But isn't it true that he did not receive the spirit until his 30th year?

The Arthur that we see in movies, books, etc is fictional, but may have been loosely based on an historical character. There's lots of theories, but apparently there was a warrior in the years just after Rome left Britain who united the various Celtic British tribes as a war leader in the effort to drive out the Saxons. The story changed with each retelling.

dmiller: I'm almost up to 3000 myself, and I'm not leaving either. This was a place that I could come to when I was at the lowest point of my life. A place where I could hammer out where I stood on God and religion and my old cult. There's always going to be folks who want to stir up the carp, who want to attack others, or who just plain insist on being stupid. Welcome to life. I've had the privelege of meeting almost thirty of you guys and gals over the last several years, and have made some good friends. I was sorry to see some people leave due to the recent cyber-brawling, I'll miss them here. I've registered and post some over at Raf's place, but it's a Christian forum, and I'll never really be able to give my honest, unvarnished opinion about some things over there. I'm sorry to see some GSers trashing other GSers at another site. But anyway, I'm sticking it out over here with dmiller!

Not me :D-->

Thanks, I'm flying next Saturday :(-->

I was on Bless Patrol at a couple of ROA's. I stopped a car with Howard Allen in the back seat. We had been instructed that only cars with passes of certain colors could go down the road I was "guarding". A black limo with darkened windows pulled up, with NO PASS. The driver, who spoke with a German (or maybe Dutch) accent insisted that he didn't need a pass, wasn't going to show me a pass, and that didn't I know that he was driving The Way's only limo? He chose not to mention that he had Howard Allen in the back. As I argued with Fritz, my partner blocked the path of the car with her body...until Howard Allen rolled down the back window, smiled, and said that they forgot their pass, could they please go in, he was very sorry about Fritz :D--> My3cents: According to Karl Kahler in The Cult that Snapped the law was changed (due in part to the Way having its own Police) and they had to downgrade to a safety patrol.

Did you wake up and see Bobby Ewing in your shower?

Two dollars for a flogging and not a penny less!

I've been studying Celtic culture and spirituality for the last several years...the Oak is sacred to followers of certain pagan traditions, the spear is an emblem of Lugh, god of light and learning.

Okay, let me see if I have this straight: LLPOF, you say that a lot (all?) of the accusations against Wierwille are false, and that you are inviting people to come down to St. Louis (I presume that's where you live) where you will refute the accusations. Or maybe just ask the accusers to pony up some proof. I'll probably be passing through St. Louis on the way to the Weenie Roast in October, but I don't have any specific personal accusations against Wierwille, having only met him twice. My beef is with some of what he taught and how his policies were carried out "on the field". What makes you think that you are equipped to decide what's truth and what's a lie with regard to Wierwille anyway?

Wordwolf: Wow...I said something that was more detailed than you did - I am humbled before thee, oh king of detailed explanations and rebuttals ;)-->

I don't consider anyone on any of the sites an "enemy". I am registered at LES, and have posted a few times, since I plan to abide by the rules, I don't anticipate any problems. As far as I know, I'm the token agnostic over there ;)--> I am also registered and have posted at the ex-JW site. I just don't see any reason to be involved over there. It would not have occurred to me to even look at it if Refiner & Oz hadn't been here at GS. There is talk about posters being "howled down" if they express unpopular views; I guess that beats being edited or banned, huh? The level of "discussions" is on par with a bunch of foul-mouthed junior high school kids. I'm not saying that places for that kind of "debate" shouldn't exist, just that I prefer to be involved in arguments where the merits of the opposing points are discussed, not the various opinions of a poster's parentage, sexuality or level of beauty/ugliness. Several who are involved take the approach that it's a haven of free speech; I guess...but can't you make your point without calling me a #@%&'n ^%$#@*&^? Finally, several posters from GS have started posting at the ex-JW site. Some (not all) of these posters have been posting what I consider foul things about other GSers. Others have been cheering on verbal attacks against GSers. Some have been flat-out lying about GS policies and the behavior of moderators. Free speech, no interference...yeah, yeah, yeah. Have at it; they're not my enemies, but I'm not about to associate with them either.

Anybody can make a mistake. We've all done it. But it's one thing to accidently click on the wrong button...oops; it's quite another to see conspiracy in others, when it's merely one's own ineptitude that's the cause of the problem.

Orthodox doctrine said that man was basically evil, fallen, sinful in nature. Pelagius taught that man was basically good, that evil was a choice that people made. This was characteristic of the Christian churches in the Celtic regions who saw body and spirit as one and not separate.

They've been looking since at least 1974. You don't have to have visited or checked with every doctor in the country to know when it's time to move on to something outside the conventional. But you knew that, didn't you?

My exposure to Way Corps leaders was somewhat minimal in the 90's, mainly because there were so few of them, and we were in a sparsely populated state and didn't get too many anyway. For several years we had a Limb coordinator who was close to funcionally illiterate. He could barely read chapters from the blue book, which is not exactly college-level material. His wife covered for him in many situations, and unless you were around him a lot, you didn't know. During the same time period we had a twig coordinator in another city who spoke and wrote as if she never attended high school. (This is not a commentary on their "heart" or the kind of people that they were)

What are the "new guidelines" that are so repressive? (my word, not Mary Cate's)

I was set to go into the 13th Corps...didn't get my money together...must not have been believing :D-->

I don't know how much Ana's post was altered by her edit...but what's the point? --> Usually she's here just looking for PFAL books and to tell us she doesn't care what we think -->

Non-belief, disbelief, unbelief, whatever-belief, should be discussed here in Open Forum according to the same standards as theistic belief. Sometimes the party should be moved to the Doctrinal Forum, sometimes not. We all have gone in different directions post-TWI. Why segregate those who haven't remained Christians?