Oakspear

George: When I got involved in TWI, there were very few Corps in our area, even though it was huge (Long Island, NY). None of the nine or ten Branch Leaders were in the Corps, the Area Coordinator and Limb Coordinator you hardly saw, so you just didn't hear all that much about Craig. To me, the TWI "celebrities" were Ralph D, Vince F (the worldwide outreach coordinator),John Lynn, Walter, Don Wierwille & Howard Allen. Those were the big shots that you saw all the time if you didn't spend any time at Emporia or HQ. It wasn't until my WOW year (1980-81) that I started hearing about Craig...from my interim Corps WOW family coordinator. When they announced in December 1980 (may be off a few months on the date) that Craig was to be the next Prez, I was pretty surprised. "Who the f*** is Craig Martindale?" Maybe you just ran in more elite circles than i did George :D-->

I can't speak for def, dmiller, but a miracle (according to most definitions) goes outside or beyond the normal rules of nature, so that a proof that uses five-senses criteria could not, by definition, prove that a miracle took place. Just for the record, I believe that miracles do take place, but like the agnostic that I am, I don't feel that I can define when they have taken place and under what circumstances. For example, let's take your example: I disagree that the absence of the medical problem indicates a miracle. It could be a remission, a spontaneous natural recovery, the effect of some treatment or environmental condition that was not known to have the indicated healing affect...or...it was a miracle: God did it. I do not believe, despite the large number of people who "know" that God did such-and-such, that you can every be 100% sure. That being said, I don't think it really matters all that much. Obviously you don't get a miracle whenever you think you need one, or get the answer to prayer that you wanted every time. No matter what your religous outlook, that's inarguable. I believe the key is to be thankful when the good stuff does come along, whether it's God, or New Age healing, or just the way our bodies were designed (or evolved).

For all of you who think we're too angry and bitter at Grease Spot: TWI still exists H*ll, I'm not angry enough

No George, you didn't misread him One of the things that I always thought ironic was that in many cases TWI gave us the tools to get out. I mean that they really did teach us keys to interpreting the bible, but anyone who honestly used them would find out the many inconsistancies and errors in TWI doctrine. Back then I didn't know or believe the worst of the abuses of Martindale and even Wierwille and was willing to stick with "the ministry that taught me the Word" even if some of it's leaders were abusive. It was a systematic "working the Word" as it applied to various TWI classes and books that opened my eyes to the house of cards that was TWI.

(It will be August 1st in an hour, but I need to go to bed before then) In August of 2001, Central Region Coordinator, Missouri-Nebraska Limb Coordinator, and Kansas City Branch Coordinator Tom H was coming to visit us in Lincoln, Nebraska. I thought it was odd, since he had just been here a few days earlier, and he was bringing his wife with him. Our fellowship coordinator called me at home to ask if I could stay afterwards, since Tom wanted to talk to me. (Aha! That's why he's here again!) Earlier I had a conversation with Tom H regarding some of my concerns about TWI doctrine, in particular several parts of the WayAP class. I had previously spoken by phone to John Reynolds, then Secretary-Treasurer of TWI,who had urged me to discuss my converns with Tom, since Tom "had worked the Word in preparation for teaching WayAP live. Tom's reply was that he didn't need to work the Word since the Trustees stood behind the class, and that was good enough for him. At the time I was posting on GS as Twyril, and the WayGB (possibly Tom H himself) had figured out that I was Twyril. I was confronted with printouts of posts that I had made, as well as information that I had shared by email with only a few individuals. I would not admit to be "Twyril" to them, but freely admitted to being convinced that much of what TWI was teaching was wrong. Just before the meeting ended I told my inquisitors that regarding the suspect doctrines "either someone is going to have to convince me that I am wrong, or the Trustees are going to have to change what they are teaching and promoting". They were aghast! Four days later I received a phone call from Tom H informing me that I was no longer welcome at Way fellowships since I "did not believe that the Trustees were leading the minsitry in the right direction." Tom H then began to give me instructions on how I was to communicate this information to my family (who were still welcome). I laughed and told him that he had abdicated any shred of authority he may have had over me; I hung up. Although it's been a rocky road, and my spouse didn't go with me, as Hope & John left together, things are so much better now. Thanks to all of you, in the forums & chat room, over the phone, by email, and in person, who have made the ride a little less bumpy.

I too will be there. I have volunteered to be the paper & plastic goods czar and am rooming with "The Cheery Dentist" Dr. Sudo

There is not one thing, not one, that I learned in TWI that I couldn't have learned somewhere else, "awesome" or not. That's not to say that there was not some things that I learned and applied. There were, just that TWI's claim to be the only place teaching the whole truth was not true.

Agreed...note the "winK'

...so, since, according to the title of this thread, you believe that the Red Sea crossing has been proved, and that if it can be proved it's not a miracle, according to your last post, then you don't believe that the Red Sea crossing was a miracle ;)-->

Nice commercial, John. At least you're honest about what you will and won't do. I understand that you don't have the time nor the inclination to read, let alone answer, a bunch of posts; but I don't have the desire, nor the inclination to get on the phone with you or any other ex-Way "leader" to listen to your spiel, because what I want is not your spin on how to get closer to God, or Jesus, or Joe Namath, nor do I seek an apology, since I can't think of any way in which you directly hurt me. (Other than a real boring afternoon sitting across from you in your Latham office watching you work --> and your pitiful attempts to mock the New York accent ;)-->) What I would like to know, not just from you, but from every ex-Way "leader" who left for "godly" or so-called biblical reasons, is: How did you miss this stuff when you where in? Why did the doctrinal errors slip under your radar while VP was still alive, but become oh-so-clear when Okie-boy was in charge? How long did you shovel the .... at us before you got out? Did you do your job in TWI knowing things were wrong? Oh well...you don't have time...congrats on your full life, chief. (btw...the name's Tom Joyce...since you like to know who you're dealin with :D-->)

I dunno Zix, Michael Clark Duncan played a believable Kingpin in DareDevil, but they didn't have to bleach his skin ;)-->

George: I guess it depends on whether you think that Martindale's "reign of terror" began when he became prez.

Happy 4th Anniversary Hope & John! John's letters to a Trustee were an inspiration for me to do the same, and set me on the path that resulted in me leaving TWI; his encouragement over the phone helped make the carp that followed a bit more bearable. Thanks guys! :D-->

...or an abacus

bump

Bible thumping word warrior smarty pants? What do you have against competance? Someone knows the bible, some can form an articulate sentence, and you somehow don't like that? Ignorance showing contempt for knowledge: too common these days, no more valid for all it's frequency.

Sky4it: The research paper did more than "state the obvious". It put in black and white an issue that TWI leaders had been avoiding for years. It refuted the scripture twisting and rationalizations that had been passed around.

MJ: I disagree with your assessment of the JS research paper on adultery. Most businesses are set up to do one thing: make money However TWI, whatever its true reasons for existing, was presented to people as a ministry, not merely a business. Despite Wierwille's, and later Martindale's, autocratic ways, most people thought of it as God's ministry, and therefore answerable to God through his Word. Most wayfers further thought of it as their ministry, and therefore fully competant to express their opinions or try to affect change. While I do not know JAL's or JS's mindsets, comparing them to an insubordinate employee in a for-profit business misses the point. Even with TWI paying the bills, JS and other were TWI, just as much as the trustees were.

He's... . . . . . . . . Simply Irresistable -->

ya got a point there Dorothy?

Of course Satori is "calling as it is" as well. Satori's "fish size" really has nothing to do with the relative validity of his statement.

Sometimes you'll hear a non-Christian (especially one who's never been involved in a church) ask "Saved from what?" In TWI we were taught that being "saved" means being "made whole", since that is what the Greek word translated "saved" allegedly means, alluding to receiving the spirit, which makes us a whole: body, soul & spirit. We were also taught that saved = born again = become a son of God. We were further taught that benefits of this was that we were "going to heaven and all hell can't stop us" and that we reaped the benefits of Jesus' life, death and resurrection, including access to physical and mental wholeness (by his stripes we were healed) We were further taught that we got saved by confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead. Are there other versions in Christianity about what exactly "being saved" is? There are plenty of you GSers who have moved onto other Christian groups and churches. What say ye?

Chas: regarding the so-called stages of reproof - 1. Confront the individual. 2. If they don't change or have a second offence, confront them with someone in the household. 3. If they don't change or have a third offence, confront them with the household fellowship (twig). I often heard it taught this way, but very, very seldom saw it in action either, at least not when "leaders" were involved. Person-to-person it usually got resolved at stage 2. When a "leader" was "reproving" you at stage one, it was often just his opinion or interpretation of what the bible said. Stage two was supposed to be take a witness or two, which was usually the "leader's" spouse. When it came to stage three, it was never the whole fellowship, but a handpicked group who could be counted on to back up the "leader", no matter what he said. By this time, the "sin" was not only what was originally confronted, but "disobedience" as well. The only time I was ever brought "before the church" was when I was put on probation for six months. The decision had already been made, but we were dragged in front of our whole fellowship to be made an example of.

Here's the link: http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/viewtopic.php?t=5301 Why? Because you don't like it? This thread is not "silly" in the sense that "Why I Reject Alice" and other like threads are, but covers an issue that the poster wants to make public. Oh, like thoughts about GS weren't posted at JWO. Where's your vaunted respect for free speech? Maybe because the folks at JWO, ex-GSers and ex-JW's alike, aren't really interested in a discussion, but in indiscriminate cussing and name-calling. Take your spoon and stir your .... somewhere else

It's not rocket science, but it's not theology either :P--> Your theory, Rachel, might be correct if God was reproducing like a human or animal does. God didn't have sex with Mary in order to produce a God-man hybrid. Something else to keep in mind: God is spirit, so, according to your "after his seed" logic, then Jesus shouild be spirit too, right? Or at least half spirit, since Mary was human. But isn't it true that he did not receive the spirit until his 30th year?