Oakspear

Or maybe they're just suckers... :P-->...not so obvious IMHO Galen!

sky: I think George's point about the "prophesy" in Isaiah giving authenticity to the gospel record is that it is a circular argument. There is nothing that would prevent a 1st century writer (e.g. a writer of the gospels) from fitting his tale into the framework of an earlier writer. You see it happen every time there is a worldwide event of any significance: Nostradamus is trotted out and the events of the day are fitted into Nostradamus' "predictions". Now maybe things happened just the way the gospel writers say that they did; I'm certainly not going to go out on a limb and say unequivocally that they didn't, it just that quoting one part of a religion's writings to back up another part of the same religion's writings is circular. Again, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily false, just that circular reasoning doesn't prove anything and is without authority as an objective source. (I've been involved in enough of these discussions with George that I felt confident in jumping in there :D-->) sky, I don't think you understand the difference between "objective" and "subjective" in the context of this discussion. It's not the same as the difference between "true" and "false". At the risk of being pedantic, let me give you an analogy: George W Bush is the President of the United States. This is an objective fact. One may argue about his fitness for office, about the circumstances or legality of his election, including hanging chads, about his intellect or lack of the same, or any other aspect of the quality of his tenure. But the fact remains that he is president. You can't argue it...you cannot reasonably argue that he has not lived in the White House these 3 1/2 years, that he has functioned in all respects as the President, etc. Something that is sujective in this regard would be his effectiveness as a President. Equally passionate people argue both sides of that question, both sides are equally convinced, by what they consider concrete evidense, that they are right. Faith is kind of like that. You, and many other Christians, as well as adherents of other faiths, are convinced that you are right about how you perceive God. Maybe you are right. But it's not objectively true, it's not self-evident. Why? Because reasonable people, looking at the plain facts, will come to different conclusions, will have different opinions about what the facts tell them. One will look at the prophecies that appear to be fullfilled and see God's hand, another will see something else entirely. Claim that it's objective fact all you want, that doesn't make it so: Niether does your beleif system make me feel threatened either sky, so feel free to punch holes in my faith in the earth mother anytime. I just will never see where the concept of finding faith in her is all that difficult when the goddess said it was not. The fact that many make it so, doesn't validate the ops of those who use that as an excuse to invalidate what it really is. Why? Because the goddess said it was not. - (adapted from sky4it's last post)

ckeer: Actually, I'm still formulating my belief system, but when I'm done, I'm sure it will be the one true faith ;)--> - you guys will be the first to know

sky: Yes, I read your statement, I had to re-read it, though, to understand your point. I stand by my previous position: I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that, or that you should be offering me "proof" of any kind. You say that you saw "convincing evidense" of Christianity's truth. But only after you decided to "take it on faith". Again, I see nothing necessarily wrong with that stance. My point is that my subjective experience is just as valid as your subjective experience. My position is not that Christianity is wrong, or in any way inferior, just that it's not self-evidently true. In other words, there is nothing about it that a disinterested, objective observer could look at that would lead one to believe that it was necessarily the one true faith.

What I'm seeing so far is: "I like what Christianity says/teaches, it lines up with the way I think things should be" rather than "I see convincing evidence, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Christianity is true"

Okay sky, I don't doubt your experience; but do you think that your subjective experience is superior to the experience of a non-Christian, and if so, why? My experiences lead me to the pre-Christian Celtic goddess and Celtic spirituality. I don't see where one is more true than the other.

Gahagan ran for federal office...U.S. Senator from Maine

Yeah, but I didn't hit him

Oldies, Rand was an unapologetic atheist. Her points generally cannot be argued within the context of Christianity, or metaphysics of any kind. But let me make my point using your book:

In discussions that I have had, at Grease Spot Cafe, and in person, I have tried to discern why people have decided to be Christians. Some folks cite the bible, which in my opinion, just moves the question back a step: why believe the bible? My observation has been that it boils down to personal experience...for example: I did what the bible said and got the result I expected I prayed and got an answer I prayed and didn't get an answer, but I feel God's love (or sumpin') I talk to God and He talks back I have a personal relationship with Jesus you get the picture, I'm sure So, my point is, if it all comes down to a subjective experience, feelings, trust, faith, all that; why is that any more correct, or more superior than a Muslim's relationship with Allah, or a witch's metaphysical experiences, or a Hindu's worship of his pantheon? I'm not picking a fight, I just want to know. When I left TWI I remained a Christian for a short time, but just couldn't see any reason to pick Christianity over the host of other choices.

There is a John Galt Blvd. up in Omaha. The studios of a major FM radio station are located there; occassionally one of the morning guys will go off on a "Who Is John Galt?" rant. I haven't yet gotten to the point in the book where John Galt appears, but I did skip ahead and saw that he does :D--> ...and Oldiesman, you don't get the quote, if I may be so bold. Giving to one's "brothers" is slavery when it is under compulsion. Rand's characters can be giving, but resist when it is forced upon them.

Anthem is short by anyone's standards. The copy I had was 50% taken up by notes and revisions. Despite the investment of time, I've enjoyed The Fountainhead and We the Living and am currently slogging through Atlas Shrugged

Is Wierwille Road technically a street?

Unc' H: When I was "in" three years ago, there was no "firm" policy. When I was put on probation in 1999 they put my wife on probation with me, even though the "offenses" were purely mine. Two years later they threw me out and allowed her to stay. If I was an "innie", I wouldn't neccessarily want Donna out of TWI, but out of the "chalet"? Yes.

You can run, but you can't hide!

Good point Grizzy, I guess I saw similar stuff, but had forgotten. I helped in several moves where one room mate got booted and the other didn't.

Thanks all!

I was a senior in high school at the time, working part-time at a gas station. I was making $2.00 or $2.50 an hour for about twenty hours a week. $2600.00 per year.

The last ones I knew about in Nebraska were in existance the year after the WOW program ended, I think 1995-96. We had two in Lincoln and maybe one or two in Omaha. After that there were a few instances of two or three wayfers rooming together, but no Way Homes after that. Part of the reson around here was not enough single people to make a go of it.

I don't know about you, Oldies(I'd go to a TWI fellowship today if there was one conveniently close by)man, but I could seek out and enjoy "fellowship with people" without having to sit through a boring repetitive meeting. I could have lunch them, play soccer with them, go bowling with them, have a beer at the blues bar with them, get together so our kids could play together, or any number of things. I could and did all of these things, speaking the Word with them, as well as more earthly things like how I loathed the Cornhuskers. If you had to go to a meeting to get some "like-minded" human contact, well, you really ought to get out more :P--> And since your mentioned listeneing to a tape, did you understand that I live in Nebraska, and Kansas City is 3 1/2 hours drive away? Not much "fellowship" involved in leaving at 10:30 am, driving until 1:00 pm, changing clothes and wolfing down a McDonald's lunch, sitting in a meeting room for two hours, slurping down some tepid coffee, and hitting the road back to the land of Big Red by 8 pm so I could tuck my kids into bed.

Wait 'till the Weenie Roast dmiller, when ya get the privelege of meeting me in person ;)--> I couldn't resist...but I knew you wouldn't get offended

he didn't say that Schoenheit uttered those exact words, but that his brush off put him in mind of VPW's line from PFAL...and by the way, it's "pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall" ;)--> (Proverbs 16:18)

Did anybody ever hear anything that they could use or apply at a Way meeting? I'm not talking about your initial exposure, PFAL class, or first fellowship, or the first time you were "witnessed to". And I'm not suggesting that there wasn't anything useful or applicable in Way teachings. What I'm talking about is the week after week Twig fellowships. How many friggin' times did you hear the same basic thing taught? Or those drives to HQ or the home of the Region coordinator; anything new and exciting there? Or was it a rehash of what you had heard before? I remember the incredulous look on a "leader's" face when I told him that I didn't see the point of driving 3 1/2 hours one way to Kansas City to hear a teaching via phone hookup when I would be receiving the tape at my home a few days later. How about those times during classes when we had to "share what blessed us" about a teaching? I never did have the guts to say "Nope, nothing blessed me, not a thing, wished I'd stayed home"

oh boy...more of John Lynn's heart -->

Hey! How did we all get on the same side of this discussion? --> Youse guys is alright :D-->