Oakspear

Who makes the decisions that underlie all of The Way International’s doctrines and practices? The Board of Directors. What gives the Board of Directors the authority to make those decisions? The fact that they are the Board of Directors, the implication being that somehow God is behind their appointment and backs up their pronouncements. Verses about following leaders without “murmurings and disputings”, and “not resisting the power” are invoked to prop up this position. Therefore whatever Rosie and the boyz decide is exempt from discussion by the unwashed masses because they are, by definition, right in what they do and say. The current Board of Directors has decided that some things are going to change now that bad ‘ol Craig is gone. The implication is that there were problems, but that everything is fine now. The problem with that position is that if the current B.O.D., by virtue of merely being the B.O.D. is unquestionably right and above argument, then that would apply to the previous B.O.D., including the President, the aforementioned ol’ Craig. Wow! What a pickle. They had to change some things, for legal reasons, and to keep some members, but they can’t come right out and say that Craig and the former B.O.D. were WRONG, because that would open up the possibility that the current B.O.D. could be wrong also. But if the former Prez wasn’t wrong, why is he no longer the Prez? Are there really still innies who don’t see this contradiction?

Eagle: I believe the First Way Corps was nine or ten, the Second about the same.

I heard former Judge Roy Moore on the radio today saying the issue wasn't the ten commandments, but the sovereignty of God.

Oldiesman: Your whitewashing and denial of evil does God a disservice. We can all see through your pretended inability to understand others' positions (nobody is that stupid). You have learned well the lessons of your idol.

One of the reasons (IMHO) that we are now on the third (or "THRID as some would spell it :P-->) annual weenie roast is that we don't have an agenda or any planning other than where to meet. We just show up with food and drink and do whatever we want, which is eat, drink, and TALK!!!! The Weenies are together almost constantly for two days, which gives us plenty of time to have real conversations, rather than just small talk. We can compare our Way and post-Way experiences, viewpoints, spiritual journeys. The natural beauty of the park itself was worth the price of admission as well. Although my calves are still recovering from the two hikes to the falls, I wouldn't have missed them for anything (including scrambling back up on wet stoines in the dark ). Rascal and I both got to "mother" each other ("be careful, Oak" - "stop and rest Rascal" :D-->) As the group started up after our second trek, I lingered behind to spend a solitary moment drinking in the energy and communing with the divine, standing with my arms spread and eyes closed atop a big rock, when I opened my eyes there was Herbal joining in the experience! More of the divine packed into that moment than twenty years of twigs! Start planning now for Weenie Roast IV

Any doctrine worth following is worth investigating and verifying for oneself. For me, the evidence of VPW's sins made it more imperative for me to do that investigating and verifying. The sins themselves did not invalidate anything he taught, but they provided an impetus to look at them a little more closely. Wierwille's sins did not make his teaching void in my mind, but they did cause me to reject taking his word on anything. If it was truth I'd find out through another source, not just because VP said so. I can't think of anyone here who suggests renouncing or rejecting PFAL or any other TWI teaching simply because the teacher was flawed.

How did he have time to do all the stuff mentyioned in his resume while he was a "full-time minister" for TWI?

One can believe in God without viewing the bible as literal

Sudo is using the hair dryer to keep the fire going! I'm not sure whose idea that was --> The guys look old because we are :D--> - and the women always look young and beautiful, no matter what their birth certificates say. Names with the "official" pics: The guy in the black t-shirt, whose hairline is headed north, glasses & moustache is me (starting with the first pic) The sweetheat in the grey t-shirt is rascal The other sweetheart in the burgundy t-shirt is wwjesuslaughat The next two pics of the guy who also has a northward heading hairline and glasses, with the grey sweatshirt is our benevolent dictator, Herbiejuan Next is Sudo, "fanning the flames" Herbal giving Sudo rabbit ears Sudo at the falls The third sweetheart with blonde hair is AHAT other than the really tall redhead (Cameron son-of-Herbal) the other kids are either rascal's or a friend of rascal

I arrived home about 2:30 this afternoon, but had to drop off the roaster and coffee pot at work and of course stopping off to see my beloved reikilady was on the agenda! Then there was laundry and tallying up the debit card receipts...well, I'm home safe and sound...and this year's winner of "The Weenie Who Travelled the Farthest" :D--> dmiller, I don't know about that weather report, but we had pretty much constant rain, but plenty of fun anyway! When I get my pics developed, I'll send them to Sudo for posting. One thing you can't see on the back of rascal's RV is that it says "Rascal and the 14th Tribe! - in case ya hadn't figggered it out, all but two of the young'uns are hers (and one of those is a friend of her son's) This year's roast wasn't as "wild" as last year's, but I had a blast. The smaller group made for a more intimate setting, and allowed more heart-to-heart conversations. Sudo, as usual, was an excellent room mate, and I got to talk quite a bit more with Herbal and Rascal than I did last year. I was pleasantly surprised that AHAT was there, and it was a treat to meet wwjesuslaughat. I'm kinda tired, but I plan on posting some thoughts tomorrow. Oh, and Song: you would not have been too much ;)--> - hope to see ya next year.

I'm leaving for the Weenie Roast in an hour, so you're all going to have to carry on without me :P--> To expand on my position: it's not that there weren't good things in the 70's and bad things in the 90's in TWI. Certainly there was. I contend that it was merely a difference in degree, not a basic, fundamental difference; that the obvious legalism and top-down control under Martindale had it's roots with Wierwille. There was little that Martindale taught that didn't have it's origin in Wierwille's teaching or example. I think it is a mistake to view TWI as two distinct entities: TWI-1 and TWI-2, as if there were little or no bad in the TWI of the 70's and no good in TWI of the 90's. And don't forget that TWI had been incorporated for close to twenty years when a lot of us got involved in the mid-seventies. (I'm assuming a 1955 incorporation - not sure if that's correct). How many folks (or perhaps more significantly, what percentage) bailed out in the fifties, the early sixties, or early seventies because of the changes that they perceived? A final thought: I believe that we should all (myself included ) beware the thinking that the time that we left was the best, the most obvious, when things really turned ungodly, as if all that left before us were cop-outs or "carnal", and those that left after us were idiots who couldn't see how bad things were. Have a good weekend!

I'll be leaving in a bout an hour - I've got everything packed except the ground sausage & peppers (keepin' 'em in the freezer as long as possible) Rekilady's coming over to say goodbye :D--> pretty soon, then it's ROAD TRIP!!!!

Radar: Disagreeing is good...I know you and I can do so without being rude to each other and maintaining respect. One of the reasons why I believe that, at least on the local level, there appeared to be love of God and "moving the Word" in TWI-70's, was that the control mechanisms were not keeping up with the rapid numerical growth. When I left New York in August 1980 there were nine or ten full size branches operating in what was known as Area (later Territory) One, which was Long Island, including Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island. There was a huge number of people, and the only Way Corps for all these people were J*ff & D**n* T*ler, the Area Coordinators. Every branch coordinator was non Way Corps, many of the twig leaders were not even advanced class grads. People did what they thought God wanted them to do, not because that was the policy of TWI, but because TWI didn't know what they were doing. The mass exoduses of the late 80's made it easier for the top to control the bottom, not because the policies had changed, but because the ratio of leaders to non-leaders had shifted. I think that it's evident that the intent to control was always there, but it took a while for the means to do so caught up.

wwjla: check! bow: thanks, I'll bring a few of my CD's, including one by Billy Falcon's daughter

Was there a difference between TWI-1 and TWI-2? Even using those terms assumes a major difference between one era and another in the history of The Way International. Most advocates of a "bad" TWI-2 and a "good" TWI-1 point to Martindale's unfitness as a leader and the negative changes that he brought to "the ministry". I say that the only differences were that Martindale was more open about his position, and may have actually believed that he was the "Man of God", yet was incredibly inept. Wierwille on the other hand was a master at working a crowd, and had a benign, fatherly public persona that he kept in the forefront, while his meaner, more controlling attributes stayed in the background. Did Martindale ask, rather demand, for the Way Corps to pledge their loyalty to him? Didn't Wierwille expect the same, but was too smart to foolishly put it in writing? Did Martindale run off those who disagreed with him? Didn't Wierwille dissolve the original Board of Directors in the fifties because they weren't a rubber-stamp committee, instead setting up the Board of Trustees, consisting of his brother and his buddy Ermal? Everything that Martindale did, he learned from his teacher, Wierwille. Many of you claim that there were good times during what you call TWI-1, while there are others, from that same period who were getting ready to run for the hills because it had already gotten so bad, even in the mid seventies. On the other hand, you can find people from the "evil" nineties who thought things were pretty good then. Memories of "good times", while true, exist amidst an ignorance of the rot that had always been there.

Is anybody bringing a CD player?

TWO (although I'm leaving tomorrow)

THREE

Well, he did ask what your opinion of VPW was, or do you know anybody else being discussed on this site with the initials VPW?, or maybe you have a problem with initials in general. Or perhaps he didn't "respectfully" put the "doctor" in there. Yippee! We have another drive by prophet! By the way, WordWolf showed plenty of respect in his reply to you, more than you have showed to him in your last post. Wait! I thought you said that WordWolf didn't rate an answer --> I lovingly and respectfully disagree - you were nasty.

Hey Radar, don't lump Martindale in with us heathens! ;)--> Makes us look bad :D-->

Oh, and I just noticed on their home page it says "Fellowships throughout the United States...didn't they used to claim it was in all fifty states?

Didn't Karen Martin edit her mom's book?

Martindale started using "prevailing" in the nineties, it's true, but that decade was called something else, "The Decade of Victory" maybe, I forget, but the current decade was dubbed "The Decade of Prevailing" just before the dumbfoot was ousted. "Building Biblical Understanding"? What a joke

Rascal: Check your private topics please dmiller: It's not to late to be a weenie bro' :D-->

Okey dokey...we'll meet at Sudo & Oak's at the inn and go from there :D-->