Oakspear

Why, I've forgotten more about brownies than you ever knew

Thanks for doing my research for me Catcup ;)--> - I let my ex-wife keep all the Way books and publications - including a stash of Way mags and collateral booklets going way back. I decided that I didn't want any of that in my home, although in retrospect I could participate more effectively in some debates here if I had my old books! :D--> I agree with you wholeheatedly about things being presented as "fact" that are not. This does hurt our collective credibility. Denominational smear campaigns full of b.s. and fantasies back in the 70's and 80's only strengthened my resolve when I saw their obvious fabrications. However... Speculation, IMHO, is fine, as long as it doesn't masquerade as fact. None of us know Wierwille's true thoughts or motivations, or what he was trying to do by setting the founding of The Way when he did. However, there appears to be a pattern of self aggrandizment: Famous people who took PFAL after they achieved fame have their success credited to PFAL and TWI; worldwide status is claimed when many countries claimed to have a Way presence have a military couple or one small fellowship; originality is claimed when plagarism is the demonstrable fact; world renowned theologians are name-dropped as if they were drinking buddies...etc. While you provide some insight as to why he might have used the October 1942 date as the founding of "his ministry", the big picture allows flexibility and alternative opinions.

There is no "one" inaugural ball. There are many that go on simultaneously with an average of 5000 people at each. The new President and First Lady visit them all during the course of the evening. Wierwille was not invited to attend an inaugural ball or any other event by President Reagan, nor did he host an event. "Invitations" to inaugural events can be requested from congressional offices. Apparently this is what Wierwille did. He is listed on a database of tens of thousands of others who requested and received invitations that year, including someone who called himself "The King of the Gypsies". Karl Kahler discusses this in his book with quotes by people on the inaugural committee as well as former U.S. Senator Bob Dole. I quoted it somewhere around here but can't find it

There were definitely "celebrities" who took PFAL and were used in a promotional pamphlet, over and above the "TWI Urban Legends" about famous PFAL grads. In addition to Collins, Jim Schoenfeldt, then of hockey's Buffalo Sabres and Bob Donaldson, a rodeo clown were briefly around in the early 80's.

Catcup: Good point about exaggeration; but I think it depends on when he started referring to anniversaries of his "ministry". If he started doing it in 1943, the difference between 1941 and 1942 would be trivial, I agree. There is every indication that his "ministry" was a side project for much of the 40's anyway. If he started celebrating anniversaries in, say, the late sixties, like when he filmed PFAL, or when growth began to accelerate, adding a decade or fifteen years to the "ministry's" longevity would be significant. Another problem for me: if 1942 was so significant as the beginning of what would become The Way, and he accomplished so much "digging the Word", why was he again ready to "chuck it all" in 1953 (or was it '52?) when he went to Tulsa?

I wonder. In no one record is there anything other than three denials, nor 2 others crucified. Sure, there are apparent contradictions among the various records, but is the bible necessarily to be understood as having "mathematical exactness and scientific precision"? The Semitic mind didn't work that way; strict chronology wasn't of paramount importanace. Do you really think God designed the bible to be a puzzle to be solved, or a plain and simple record?

Bravo Bob, bravo...well done! Catcup...Mrs. Wierwille stopped her bio of her husband in the very early 60's, when they moved their "headquarters" to the family farm with financial underwriting by Harry W. It didn't even cover the expansion in Ohio, let alone the filming of PFAL, the "hippies" and the Way Corps.

"I am so very thankful to be no longer eating the pure .... that the XXXXXX Church was serving and able to enjoy the .... laced brownies that God so surely had a hand in baking. I know that dmiller had some errors in his brownies, but I take that brownie and carefully remove the .... using my exacto knife. What fools you all are for renouncing dmiller's brownies simply based on his sin"

"Do you believe that I can heal your arm?" "Yes, but I do not believe in your brownies"

The greatest cargoes of life come in on quiet brownies

Sky: I might even question the very existance of the brownies :D-->

dmiller: Oldies will no doubt castigate most of us for "renouncing" your brownies based on your sins, while he retains the parts that "make sense" to him. Might the phrase eat .... be appropriate at this time?

My first ROA was six or seven days ('78), and even though there was some structure, there was plenty of room for doing your own thing on your own schedule, in fact I never ate at the standard meal times, since I liked to avoid the lines. (Rascal, I never did warm up to biscuits and "gravity" - always sent me to the port-o-johns - must be a southern thing :D-->) Even though the grand poobah taught at the main stage each night there was a casualness about wandering in & out that appealed to me. There were teachings geared to specialized audiences (musicians, teachers, parents, etc) during the day that you could attend or not; or you could just hang out with your buddies old and new. In 1981 I attended just one evening teaching: opening night (I was a returning WOW) and worked Bless Patrol for most of the other nights. In contrast, the final ROA in 1995 was a nightmmare. We were informed as we arrived that Martindale would be teaching "The Class on Living Sanctified"; he taught from Exodus in the morning and from Corithians in the evening. With our work assignments and meetings with our home twigs we hardly had a moment to ourselves.

Harve was in Branded - he actually taught my twig when they were on some kind of tour in 1981 or 82. He was also the guitarist for the TWI "house band" that included Dave L, Fred G on bass Anthony H on drums and sometimes Mike M.

I'm thinking that I hope "Holy Spirit" doesn't get in a funny mood around me and decide to bang my head Also I hope I can hook up with a god or goddess who can do better than firing my butt in order for me to feel compassion for the next guy In principle I agree with part of your point Kit, that the divinity does things in our lives for others...I'm just sorry that your god had to beat up Fred and then fire him ;)-->

Well, the only sad part Sky, is that it took me so long to figger it out :P--> I agree with you that everybody wanted to give Wierwille the benefit of the doubt, maybe because we wanted what he claimed to have: "The Answers".

Okay Oldies, I'm going to try ione more time: I can't speak for others, only for myself. First, I made contact with TWI via a Twig Fellowship in 1978 and shortly thereafter took the PFAL class. Lots of things are taught in that class, some which are the same as "orthodox" Christianity, some which are not. Wierwille backs up some of what he says with a plain unvarnished reading of the KJV, but some things that he teaches are based on Greek and Hebrew texts and definitions, most of which I was unqualified to verify, and some of which differ from what can be found in Greek and Hebrew reference works. Insofar as I couldn't read the biblical languages, I had to take his word for some of the things which he taught. In my view he established his trustworthiness to me (at that time) by his plain reading of verses that contradicted the orthodox view - what was written appeared to coincide with what he taught. Since many things that he taught were based on these unverifiable (to me) definitions and interpretations, much of what I believed was based on an assumption that he was telling the truth about what he was teaching. Anyone who says that they didn't follow the PFAL doctrine just because Wierwille taught it should, IMHO, reconsider in light of what I just wrote Years later Martindale took over as primary teacher of TWI. Mostly he based his teachings on what Wierwille taught, but as time went on he added his own unverifiable definitions and interpretations. When Martindale taught his new class, The Way of Abundance and Power to the cameras, he was in the midst of an "affair" that would eventually lead to a lawsuit and subsequently to his "dethronement". I wondered how someone who was so immersed in deception could be in any position to teach the foundational truths to "the household", especially in light of sections like "The First Sin of Mankind" where he comes up with definitions of Hebrew words without any apparent source other than his own mind. This doubt led me to begin examining Martindale's class, page by page. I found many, many, many errors. I began "throwing out" Martindalean doctrines one by one, not because Martindale sinned, but because the doctrines were not compatible with either the bible or the "keys" that Wierwille taught. As I dug into Martindale's errors, I began to find similar errors in Wierwille's work. By this time I had made no decision to throw anything out beforehand, but to carefully examine what was taught, using Wierwille's own methodology. (At this time I had no knowledge of Wierwille's sins) Eventually I found enough errors to undermine my faith that Wierwille's work was fundamentally sound. Later I checked out the CES website and was amzed to find the number of differences between CES and TWI, even though both used Wierwille's keys to letting the bible interpret itself. After this I took a good hard look at the disagreements among ex-wayfers as to what "The Word" said and meant, then at the multitude of differences among Christian denominations as to what the will of God was...never mind the non-Christian religions out there. I decided to "reset" my faith as it were, start over. This necessarily meant "throwing out" what I learned before. I wanted to begin anew, starting with being convinced that there was even a God, then moving on to more specific things. After that I started finding out about Wierwille's lies, his sins, his untrustworthiness. So, no, I didn't "throw out" anything because of Wierwille's sins. I hope that is abundantly clear.

Do you ever really read what people post? I can't believe that you are as moronic and dense as you appear Oldies. Nobody is that stupid.

"I know stuff you don't know so stop arguing"...where have I heard that before?

I stand by my statementActually, I'm in the minority here since I am no longer a Christian post-TWI, but it's not because of Wierwille's sins. And I had the same reaction that rascal did which she ably expressed in the following quote: What many if not all have done is to discontinue believing what Wierwille taught just because Wierwille taught it. In other words, Wierwille's word that something is true is not good enough, the "truth" must be corroberated from another, more trustworthy, source.

Hmm...Oldies throws out some of what Wierwille taught, but that's just because it "makes sense" and "nothing better has come along"...anyone else throws out some of what Wierwille taught andthey are "renouncing 'The Word' because of Wierwille's sins".

Yes we do :D-->

Despite being originally from NYC, I really hate the Yankees. Go Red Sox!

Hi Radar (you weren't asking me a question - just wanted to let you know someone is paying attention to you) :P--> all this talk about spankings is making me sweaty )

Liar. And how would you know what went on? Reading your crystal ball? You make all kinds of wild assumptions about my motives without a shred of evidence. Liar You weren't trying to cause trouble for TWI? --> That's what it looked like to me too --> Could you inform us (or re-inform us as the case may be) what "really" went on?