Oakspear

Lorna: As you say the bible says that tongues are to God, not men. It says that prophesy is to men band is edification and exhortation and comfort (not edification by way of exhortation and comfort, as VPW taught btw). It goes on to say that interpretion is so that the church may recieve edifying. Does that necessarily mean that it is to men? Could the church not be edified by hearing the praise to God?

Well...yeah, Catcup...no one can successfully refute what you are saying because as you so bluntly pointed out: we weren't there. The flip side of that is that neither you nor your friend can successfully prove it either. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence,there's no way to demonstrate either the truth or falsity of it. In this case, the "un-degraded country bumpkin" isn't around to let us hear his Hebrew tongue, or check into his background, or do any of the things that an objective investigator does to verify an account. No matter how many "irrefutable" incidents that people trot out, it seems that whenever someone does a scientific study of it, they can't verify that tongues are an actual language.

Thanks dmiller for the considered answer. That's why I like you: you don't get all huffy that an unbeliever is questioning your beliefs, you go "hmmmm" and think it through, and give an answer that (usually ;)-->) makes sense.

OM: You've never been alone in this opinion, just the most vocal and impervious to reason ;)--> So, since good things happened, VPW wasn't such a bad person? -->

dmiller: While I am usually skeptical when somebody tells me that a set of circumstances had to be God, I don't dismiss it out of hand either. I'll assume that the incidents that you describe were indeed God's intervention. Does that mean that EVERY event in every location involving every person was organized and set in motion by God? I don't see it. But I suppose that you and I can both effectively and convincingly argue both sides of the issue :P-->

Why dmiller?

Just because the same word is used literally in one place, does not eliminate the possibility that it is being used figuratively elsewhere. There is no contradiction between pater being used literally of God's relationship to Jesus and figuratively of the Pharisees' relationship to the Devil. TWI put a lot of emphasis on what Greek or Hebrew word was used, as if there could be no nuance of meaning, or more than one meaning of the same word. I recall teachers in TWI breathlessly pointing out that the word "love" in a certain verse was agape, as if it was significant...duh! Almost ALL the occurences of "love" in the KJV are translated from agape!

All that this verse says that if we fullfil a condition, i.e. confessing our sins, he will forgive those sins. It does not say that if we don't confess our sins he won't or can't forgive them. Although it pains me to agree with the head brownie-eater himself, one exception to the theory that forgiveness is available only to those who ask for it pretty much disproves it as a rule.

They referred to the apostles remaining in Jerusalem when the rest were scattered after Stephen's death. But they ignored Peter's travels outside Jerusalem, even though he appears to be the leader. They also refer to James & the other elders being in Jerusalem when Paul came there for the Passover, apparently in a position of leadership. Practically, I think that in the 21st century they need some kind of "headquarters" to function as an organization, if only for legal and administrative purposes. Before The Way got very big "headquarters" was simply where Wierwille lived. That it was on a farm with lots of open land, suitable for building, made it easier to expand than had they been in an apartment in Payne or Van Wert.

Mine also!Of course the cat dropping the body part onto the barge was great

If someone were pronounced dead and verified to be so by competant medical authorities, beyond a shadow of a doubt...and he was raised from the dead...all of this witnessed by disinterested observers/witnesses...sure, I'd believe it. If somebody told me that he'd heard about somebody raising somebody else from the dead, but was light on specifics, and there was no observer/witness without a vested interest in the story being true, sure I'd be doubtful. Most (if not all) stories and incidents about supernatural occurences occur away from any means of impartial verification. Doesn't mean that they're not true, it means that telling the story, or even believing it doesn't make it true.

Radar: I know what you mean, it kind of depends on your job whether or not you can pull it off though. For thirteen years, ending in 1999, I was a sales rep, and regional sales manager for a newspaper. My staff and I were given goals. My directors did not care if it took me seventy hours each week to achieve the goals, they had no sympathy whatsoever. On the other hand, if I could achieve the same thing in twenty hours, they had no problem with that either. Generally I was given the territory-from-hell after a succession of bad reps, with the mandate to clean it up. After a few weeks of litle sleep and many meals eaten from behind the wheel of my car, I got it in order and could work a much shorter week. I believed in efficiency and delegating. My current job is assistant manager for a largish grocery store. I am as skilled at delegation, and as efficient as ever; but no matter how quickly I get my projects done, I am expected to "put in my time" at the store. This makes sense, since there are always customers in the store that need attention, care and feeding. Even though I can't leave early, getting all my tasks done early in the day or week, makes for less stress the rest of the time.

Galen: Do you have some information that William Samarin is not a linguist or that there was anything wrong with his study? The reason I am asking is that you put quotes around linguist and studied - doing that indicates skepticism about the words enclosed in quotes. How about speaking in tongues for George's son? I'd pay for the phone call.

Use the Doctrinal Forum, it's not being used for doctrinal discussions much these days

As usual, no discussion from the guy who posted the link; kind of reminds me of the recorded political phone calls I find on my answering machine every day.

The fool hath said in his heart "there are no brownies"

Now not everything that Wierwille bakes is necessarily a brownie

And we ceased, saying, the brownies of the Lord are done

...now any brownies that were baked aforetime were for our learning...

Apollos, the great brownie-tongued orator...

The recipe for the brownies is as much the brownies as the brownies are the brownies

Greeeeeeaaaaaaat are the brownies of the Ephesians...greeeeeeaaaaaaat are the brownies of the Ephesians...

That's right, you move your lips, your throat, your tongue...eat the wonderful brownies of God

What was Paul's thorn in the flesh? Why it was brownies peepul...

Maybe because Jesus was sent to Israel while Paul was a minister to the gentiles?