Oakspear

Evan & BFD: Yup, the particulars aren't that important are they? Whether it was a literal tree, a tree standing figuratively for something else...Adam and Eve disobeyed God. End of story, eh?

BFD:If you are a bible believin' type o' guy, shouldn't you be concerned about what something is called? That whole "God means what he says and says what he means" thang? AS Song would day "Just a thot" :D-->

:D-->

While I'm not a fan of suicide, computer crashes or dogs crapping on my carpet, I am in favor of the !'s having good sex. With each other.

For example...?

On the night that the lawsuit was announced to the "innies" we were told to keep our eye on the newspapers for any information, but that we didn't need to check the internet. That night I hardly slept after finding Waydale. I posted for about eighteen months while "in" under a variety of handles. I discovered Grease Spot shortly before Waydale shut down through a link on Waydale. Through both sites I discovered that what was happening in our somewhat isolated area was not unique, that our abusive leadership were not rogue Corps out on their own ego trip, but it was all part of a greater pattern. Through both sites I had an outlet to discuss problems I had with TWI doctrine, and see things without the TWI filter. Through both sites I met others who were going through what I was in my marriage and became good friends with them. Thanks, TWI leadership for telling me not to look to the internet for information about the lawsuit!

BFD: Can you, speaking as someone who believes that administrations are biblical, address Steve Lortz's position? Or perhaps my questions about possible additional "administrations"?

Okay, no talking about Wierwille, no personal attacks. Sounds good. No dismissing what people post as "lack of understanding" without supporting verses either

I don't know about anyone else, but BFD stood for BibleFan Dave in my posts, nothwithstanding what the "right" way to abbreviate it is -->

There is some disagreement here at GSC about just what Wierwille ("doctor" purposely omitted) was teaching and just how much of it was "The Word of God". You're saying that the Word of God is a foreign concept to def59? Do you even read his posts? def & I frequently disagree and can get kind of snippy with each other...but "The Word of God" as a foreign concept? What planet are you from? Why, because def comes up with a different conclusion than you do?

Let's start with the so-called Law Administration: When did it begin? Probably with the giving of "The Law" to Moses, wouldn't you say? But that "Law" was given piecemeal over a period of forty years according to "The Law" itself. Didn't God deal differently with Israel during the forty years in the wilderness? During the time of Joshua? The time of the Judges? The Kingship? The Captivity? Did you know the rules for observing the passover were different in several of those time periods? And what about non-Jews during the time between the giving of the Law and the ministry of Jesus? They weren't under the Law, were they? So what administration were they under? What about what Wierwille called "The Appearing Administration? Is God really dealing with anyone the same before the thousand-year binding of Satan and after? By the way, I have always tended to think that the bible teaches some form of dispensationalism, but am re-thinking that opinion in light of other information...just "for your learning" ;)-->

BFD: In one of your posts on this page you mention how it is wrong to assume what someone's motives are, referring to VPW. Yet you are regularly doing that to others here. You are assuming that the motivation of several of the posters here is a hatred of VPW, TWI et al. You then deride those who disagree with you as "clearly unable to understand administrations", or "really don't understand the bible at all". Posters bring up points of disagreement; you don't address those points, but tell the posters to "address their anger issues", accuse them of believing what they do due to a blindness brought on my unthinking anti-Wierwillism and repeat the same analogies ad infinitum. You pat yourself on the back for parting ways with Wierwille on several points, illustrating that you are an independent thinker, and rip other posters for disagreeing on others. Pick some points that other posters have made and discuss them, why doncha?

Okay, ease up :D-->No one's condemning you, and we are giving serious answers. After (I assume) considering the advice you have received, what do you think now?

JM: Look around the cafe. We're not making this stuff up. With a small handful of exceptions we were all in TWI and know what we're talking about. TWI is bad news. Stay away. Why exactly are you involved in TWI anyway? That may help us give you a more specific answer.

Didn't Paul in one of the Timothy epistles mention some evil that some folks had done? Yes? And he was hardly without sin now, was he? Back to the stone throwing!

Steve: Your explanation of what was written to whom, etc makes a lot of sense. I always thought it was a "wrong dividing" to ignore the "...who are at Ephesus", or Corinth or wherever in the salutation section of each epistle. Thanks for your insight into adding different "administrations" Anyway, as I'm sure that you understood, the Oakspearian Administrations illustrate just how arbitrary the scheme is. Bullinger picked seven because it fit into his framework of number in scripture, and Wierwille picked up on it, although he changed them around a little. Although many of them are in fun, there are just as many differences in the way God dealt with people within some of the TWI administrations as between them. What do you think of that, Biblefan Dave?

Unfortunately, the system that Wierwille set up didn't allow for the Trustees to do anything. Wierwille gradually took on the role of "THE Man of God", which put him in a position of unquestioned power. When he stepped down and (literally) annointed Martindale as his replacement, with all the symbolism and ceremony, the implication was that Martindale inherited Wierwille's authority. It wasn't until the Allen lawsuit that he had gone too far even for the other Trustees and had to be replaced.

okay, my tongue is out of my cheek now :D--> Steve L: In your "non-administrative" view of the bible, do you believe that there are some parts of the bible that aren't "written to us"?

Even if the concept of "administrations/dispensations" as a time period is valid, who said that there had to be seven? Why not more? Adamic Administration - Adam only Adam & Eve Administration - Adam & Eve in Eden Outta Eden Administration - Adam & Eve alive and keeping the faith after expulsion from Eden Antediluvian Administration - pre-flood Post-diluvian Adminsitration - After the flood Abrahamic Administration Egyptian Captivity Administration The Wilderness Administration Taking Over the Promised Land Administration Gettin' Their Butts Kicked by the Gentiles Administration The Kingdom Administration Babylonian Captivity Administration Post Captivity Administration Christ on Earth Administration Petrine Administration - Peter top dog - Christ ascended, but still following law Pauline Administration - out with the law Gathering Administration - after gathering together - Beast reigns Judgement Millenium Administration - Christ reigns for 1000 years No More Sorrow or Crying Administration - end of Book of Revelation onward :P--> - There are differences, although some are slight, from one of these time periods to the next. Why not break up time into twenty or more "administrations"?

Is there someone here who said that? No, what Wierwille did was use the parts of the OT that he liked and dismiss the rest. If he liked it, then "we should do more than they did under the law" like he did with tithing, if he didn't like it, it was merely "for our learning". Heck, an argument could be made that Wierwille's distinction between "for our learning" and "written to us" was not as sharp as he made it Or, maybe they don't apply to us because we aren't Israel. They didn't apply to the Vikings or the Apaches back then either. I guess one question is: "Is the new birth tantamount to the grace administration. There's a good thread about whether the new birth = holy spirit here in Doctrinal.

My family and I had dropped out of active involvement in TWI during the time of the Passing of the Patriarch and got back involved in late 1990. We missed all the "excitement" and the mass exodus, as well as the so-called fog years. We knew people who had left and hooked up with various offshoots, and we knew people who stayed in. Why did we choose to go with TWI rather than an offshoot when we decided to get involved with a "fellowship" again? One reason was that most of the people that I personally knew who had left, who were making accusations against Martindale and the Trustees were pea brains whose judgement wasn't worth much to me. The people who were in all happened to be people who I respected and trusted. Another reason was that I heard Martindale's side of things (the Leadership/Galatians Tapes) but not Geer's or Lynn's or Dubofsky's. (This was 1990 and I would not own a computer for several years and no one I knew had access to any competing information) Mrs. Wierwille, the Georges, and others who had been with VPW from the beginning were sticking with Martindale. After a decade had slipped by I finally realized what a mistake I had made.

I agree, Uncle H. VP sucked a lot of people in with his charismatic personality and his ability to convince via his teaching. Loy retained the fraction he did because some folks believed that he was annointed by Wierwille, and he was still (until 1994) running Wierwille's class, which accounted for any new growth. He didn't have Wierwille's skill, but he was entertaining :P--> I would be very surprised if there was more than a fraction of a trickle of new people under Prez #3. She has no personality, and ousting Loy undermined the "infallibility" of the MOG that helped to keep things together before.

I saw the sabbath described as "giving one seventh of your time" in a Way Rag article by Loy, I believe entitled "The Tithe Doth Still Provide", but I never saw it elaborated upon.

While I agree that Wierwille couldn't possibly have known everything that was being done in his name, I find it inconceivable that widespread corruption of his doctrines could have proceeded for very long. How many times did people say "this wouldn't be going on if 'Doctor' knew about it", only to find out that he either already knew or didn't care? Something else to consider, with choosing of leadership supposedly done by revelation or inspiration or somesuch, how could Wierwille disavow a rogue teaching?

Where in Malachi or anywhere else does it mention giving 1/7th of time? The sabbath, if that's what you are referring to, was a "rest", it wasn't giving anything