Oakspear

I don't know if either was right, or both were wrong. <<<<<Derailment warning>>>>>The error is that Wierwille used the argument that Joseph having older sons would invalidate Jesus' claim to the throne of David when he taught that the royal geneology was through Mary. He was inconsistant, Bullinger, while I don't know if he was right, was consistant in this case. Carry on :D-->

I got the same message. I sent a message to the webmaster asking him what was up.

I met both good and bad Corps people. They did seem to get worse in the nineties, but there were still good and bad. I do wonder at the mindset of those who deplore the Way Corps while admiring the man who set the standards for their behavior, VP Wierwille. If abusive "Corps-Nazis" were removed and disciplined when their abuse was reported that would be one things, but it didn't happen often did it?

My use of the term "primitive" did not refer to the quality of the songs themselves, or the skill of the performers, just that whoever put the record together was not thinking "radio airplay".

At my last apartment (the hovel) Two young guys who were in a "band", practiced at all hours, would get high and jump out the second story window (breaking the glass) and had a meth lab in the apartment. It was a happy day when I saw them handcuffed against the hood of a police car one evening.

Despite the myth that Wierwille was already teaching before he ever read Bullinger, I believe that he did indeed read Bullinger, but didn't always read him thoroughly or understand his point. In The Word's Way chapter "The Lord's Brethren" Wierwille discusses several denominational beliefs about Jesus' brothers. One being that they were Joseph's sons from a previous marriage. He rebuts this idea by saying that the existance of older brothers would have invalidated Jesus' claim to the throne of David. This is mentioned in one of Bullinger's appendices to the Companion Bible. Bullinger backs this up by showing that Joseph was the heir of David, and that it is his geneology in Matthew. Mary's is in Luke. If Joseph was in the royal line, then his older sons would be considered heirs before Jesus. Makes sense. EXCEPT that Wierwille's take on the geneologies was opposite from Bullinger's! He believed that Matthew contained MARY's geneology and that Luke contained Joseph's. If Wierwille's teaching on the genelogies was correct then Joseph having older sons from a previous marriage would have irrelevant to Jesus being heir to the throne of David. He cut and pasted from Bullinger without really understanding IMHO. (Another Actual Error?)

If PFAL is the god-breathed Word of God we have to accept several things in regard to the plagiarism issue: 1. That some sections of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, especially the earlier editions, are word-for-word identical to passages from the works of J.E. Stiles. 2. That Wierwille was a graduate of B.G. Leonard's Gifts of the Spirit class and that the earliest versions of PFAL were Leonard's class in most important aspects. 3. The words of other authors found their way into Wierwille's works without attribution. (By "attribution" I do not mean meantioning that Wierwille had learned from or studied with the original author, but that he specifically said that the words were quoted from or adapted from the author) Again, if PFAL is revelation from God, then God had to do one or more of several things: A. Give Vic revelation to write certain things, not telling him that they were already written by others. B. Give Vic revelation to write certain things, telling him that they were already written by others. C. Direct Vic to copy from other authors I think that the God being described here is a pretty puny one. He tells his earthly representative to break the law, which he already directs people not to do in the previous god-breathed "Word". He isn't smart enough to put these concepts into fresh words, but has to copy them from an inferior author. Brilliant!

Did anybody ever do that? I'd love to know how that went over. :D--> I was a deejay on a non-commercial radio station from 1988-1995. During the early nineties I played TWI music during a 6-8am timeslot. Most of it didn't make an impression, other than Claudettee Royal.I can't see the "bring the album in and have believers request it" thing work. Most radio stations stick pretty tightly to a playlist, and even "requests" are only played to give the illusion of listening to the listener. They play what they had already dtermined that they would play while running a ten second audio clip of Joe listener requesting it. But "Rock of Ages '72"? While I personally enjoyed a lot of what was on there, the production quality was pretty primitive and songs tended to get cut off rather abruptly. Although it does have Hope R singing "I Love the Lord"

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This is an anti-TWI web site Wierwille founded TWI OF COURSE WE'RE FOCUSSING ON WIERWILLE!!!

After mentioning on another thread that I am very sensitive to the wishes of the owner of that new website (somewhat TWI affiliated)regarding my posting habits there on his site, it surprised me that I wasn't immediately pounced on by "the usual suspects" and accused of NOT being sensitive to the wishes of the owner of THIS website. Maybe some of my regular antagonists are so blinded by their rage against me that they didn't see their opportunity when it was right in their faces. ;)--> Well actually, I most definitely AM sensitive to Pawtucket's wishes, and his hint yesterday, hidden in a pretty good joke, has prompted the idea for me starting this thread today. *** There are many things in the "About the Way" forum that I am keenly interested in commenting on, but I can see that blind rage often flares up there, even if I so much as try to help out. The reaction to my attempt today to augment Bluzeman's efforts regarding the hiding of identities is just one mild example. Because I do care for people in general here, and not just Pawtucket's well being, I am setting up this thread as a place where I can comment from a slight distance on some of the happenings in the "About the Way" forum. It can bother me that my message and posts aggravate some people way too much over there. I'm going to try and sequester myself here in this thread, or maybe in other ones like it, labeled proPFAL, to warn people that they might not like what's inside. However, there may be times when a most important subject, and/or maybe one with fewer aggravation buttons attached, comes up and I'd like then to post there. I'd also like to jettison the "Masters..." thread, not because I am finished with that subject, but because I know the size bothers people. My purpose in posting is NOT to aggravate anyone, but to help. *** My purpose here, much to the disbelief of some, is NOT to promote myself. My efforts in these proPFAL directions, have accomplished JUST THE OPPOSITE of promoting myself in the eyes of the vast majority of grads, and not just GreaseSpotters. The reason I continue is because I firmly believe the message I have embraced is true even if nobody believes it, AND that it is vital to all. Even if I have to pay a steep price for my proPFAL activities, I'm convinced enough in it's Truth to pay that price and continue promoting, not myself, not vpw, not twi, but the contents of the written PFAL. I think I've proved myself intelligent enough to have perceived the lack of response that my pleas to come back to PFAL have garnered, as well as the demotion of my reputation. For people to remind me of these things is a wasted exercise in redundancy... and vain repetition. ;)--> *** SongRemainsTheSame, if the reason you sing on the "Masters..." thread is to have the largest stage from which to project, respect please, the wishes of those here and let it sink down the charts. If your motivation is to simply clutter my message, then this notice will serve as your "walking papers" to come and "entertain" me here on this thread or other threads like it from now on. --> *** I'm thinking, as mentioned on another thread, of a separate thread for the spurious charges of plagiarism where I can collect and re-write all my ideas already posted on that topic, and if I do I'll prefix the title of that thread with "proPFAL" like I did this general thread. I may also do one on the sex issue, but that's more complicated, and more difficult emotionally for some to deal with, AND more difficult emotionally for me to deal with as well. I've mentioned that I was hurt by the sex problems of twi, but I don't like talking about it in any detail. *** It's been suggested at times that I post on another website. I have considered that deeply, and may still do that someday. However, one of the reasons I post here is that there are many issues bugging you folks that no other grads have risen up to address. It's HERE that those issues come out. I'm one of the few who have taken advantage of the great information and instruction available to those who come back to PFAL with intentions to meekly master it. By "meekly" I mean recognizing it as God's revelation and not merely vpw's opinions. The same issues are squelched in other splinter groups because their leaders, regardless of their claims to have loved VPW, have disobeyed Dr's final instructions, and are not mastering the material needed to deal with those issues properly. For that reason they resent me trying to help there as it makes their leadership look bad. There are a few websites I may gravitate to deal with the much more enlightening issues that are within the contents of PFAL. *** So what else is happening? Oh yes... And now for this antiOakspear commercial message to find fault with my good intentions here. :P--> ...or maybe a lot of such messages... :D--> Oh yeah, I heard about this guy named Mike, and learned some things from him, but nobody can put it together like me, in fact this lqady doctor from Chicago says that he writes like I teach...

Really? the guy who claimed that God taught him the "Word" like it hadn't been taught since the first century didn't lead me to believe that? The guy who threw out all his theological books and commentaries and claimed to have gone back to just working the "Word" didn't lead me to believe that? -->

Where in the supposedly canonical PFAL does he "cite his sources"? Where in RHST does he say that whole sections are copied word-for-word from Stiles? For that matter where does he admit, in print, on tape, or in anyone's recollection, that the original PFAL class, which his wife said in her book was initially called Receiving the holy spirit today was really BG Leonard's class on the gifts of the spirit? The only citing of sources that he does is to claim that he learned from some of these guys. There was never any admission by Wierwille or by his sucessors that he quoted extensively without attrribution.

Bullcarp Mike. Wierwille evidently learned how to cite sources later in his career, because he did so. God's family has looser standards than the secular publishing world? We were led to believe that it was Wierwille's work when it wasn't, not entirely, it was Stiles', Leonard's, Bullinger's (yeah I know, it was really God's, but I'm talking about work that was published in the senses world)I'd really like to post "pro" PFAL here. There are things that I liked about it and areas that were helpful. I just can't let some of your statements go by unchallenged. It may be a genetic defect.

He said that he didn't believe you? What an idiot! There are times that we suspect that somebody is "scamming" us, and we'll try to determine what is really going on, but never, never, never suggest that the customer is lying

I believe that he believed it at the very first. By that I mean when he was studying to be a minister, his early church days and the early days of the Mitch Miller Caravan Singers :D--> I don't get the impression that being a preacher man in small town Ohio was the best way to strike it rich. I believe that as he started to gain more influence, he saw the opportunity for more influence and slowly started losing his integrity, and letting his ego run the show. I doubt that he foresaw how big things would get when he stole Leonard's class and pushed it as his own in 1950-whatever. But things like this become a real slippery slope.

I think that Rosalind Rinker was the missionary who had been to Korea, brought up lack of "abundance" or something. Dr, Higgins was the doctor in Chicago, had read some Bullinger supposedly.

Mike: The claims of plagarism are not spurious, they are real. The importance of Wierwille's plagarism is arguable, it's existance is not.

Nice job with your ad hominem attacks HCW! Your characterization of WordWolf is way off base. While your first-hand accounts are certainly illustrative, maybe you shouldn't be so suprised and offended if someone disgrees with your conclusions.

Ditto being "blessed" that our kids are not involved. None of mine are anymore. I don't really have an issue with the "I'm blessed" droning, what I find alarming is the lack of any evidense of critical thinking skills. Several of us have been asking questions that have been pretty much softballs compared to what goes on at GS, yet they seem to curl up in a ball and avoid even thinking about the questions, let alone the answers. Gsers have been referred to "leadership", had it suggested that we were straining at semantics, focussing on negatives and on the past, and had meaningless circular phrases subsituted for actual answers. Opinions are only welcome when they are in alignment with "the Word" as taught at TWI. I'm proud that my kids are making decisions based on what is best for their lives, not on some arcane doctrine, although they have to clear out the waybrain just like I do.

Mike: I had no problem with your response to me over at FT. I do second Igotout's suggestion that you keep posts shorter, but it doesn't look like they are interested, but who knows. We're gluttons for punishment over here at GS, but I'll bet that they'd call that a masochistic spirit ) I hope that you're not serious about messing me with their kids...I recognize one of the names of the "kids" who post there, he's started several threads. He's been in my home and my daughter was friendly with him at one time, I believe that he is about twenty. Dmiller: I really don't know if there is "leadership" in my area any more, I do know that there are no Way Corps any closer than Kansas City. They were "overseeing" Nebraska from there when I left a few years ago. I believe that some of the folks think that we're just innies who are kinda slow , while the administrator knows full well that we are involved with GS. I for one am not looking for a fight with any of these folks, but have gotten used to not having to phrase all my statements in wayspeak.

Hmm...according to a poster at Familytables.net they announced at the Advanced Class Special that the "Florida Household was like the biggest ever"

I finally saw it last night. I enjoyed the movie, despite the bad, bad, bad, movie physics. Smith was good, I thought (he hasn't been doing the "Fresh Prince" thing for years IMHO -->) They tagged it "I, Robot" to cash in on Asimov, yet the movie had little to do with the book, which is a collection of short stories. The connections were several characters who are nothing like the characters of the same name in the books, and of course, The Three Laws. Anyone who has read the later Asimov Robot/Foundation fusion novels would recognize Daneel Olivaw's "Zeroth Law" articulated by "Viki": A robot must protect humanity, even if some humans are hurt.

Lot's of suspension of disbelief. Absolutely NO indication that what was going on was going on; characters popping up in the last five minutes to save the day...fun though. The scene where several characters are guessing George Clooney's age (too high) was based on a real incident where he asked a woman "How old do you think I am?" - she replied "Fifty, fifty-one". - He's forty-three :D-->

I believe I was the first to have a post deleted :(--> (I'm trying to be nice, really :D-->) A poster in the Youth Forums was gushing about the Advanced Class Special and how she learned that the Florida Household was "like the biggest ever". I commented that that surprised me, that I would have thought that trhe early 80's would have had more people, especially before the mass exodus of the late 80's. The post disappeared. Otherwise the folks do appear "nice" I received a few friendly emails from the administrator, and Abigail, igotout and I have received advice to talk things over with our leadership