Oakspear

It's a TWI/PFAL myth that applying the biblical research keys would necessarily yield "the truth" in all cases. Go visit the doctrinal forum and see people arguing opposite sides of an isssue, and both sides can cite scripture to back up their point. Just because we learned something in PFAL, and it still makes sense, and the opposite view seems to not make sense, and we've worked it ourselves, doesn't necessarily mean it's "truth". There are too many points along the way where our own understanding, faulty translations or definitions, or just lack of cultural context could lead us to the wrong conclusion. Yet we feel qualified to judge a church's doctrine as unambiguously "false".

...about how "blessed" everyone is --> -->

...and another thing :P-->... PFAL really wasn't what it was billed as: a class on "keys" It was to promote Wierwille's doctrine, using those keys to illustrate the new and groovy doctrine.

Even if one assumes that Wierwille was "right on" with his PFAL class, is that the best that can be done almost forty years after it was filmed? Can't you PFAL fans take what was learned and expand on it? Build on it? Teach the same basic stuff with your own lame jokes? :D-->

igotout: I think you have clearly and boldly ;)--> made your point! Nonetheless, I think I'll still discuss it, if it's okay with you :D--> The way things turned out pretty much proves our point about lack of openess at TWI, discussion about it here keeps it in the open for any "innie" lurkers, since they can't get real debate on their own site.

Initially I thought Family Tables would be a great opportunity for GSers and "innies" to interact and ask and answer honest questions. Although some of the questions and comments from GSers were pointed, we were all respectful, and played by their rules. What I didn't take into account was that "leadership" was probably paying close attention, especially after we all showed up to crash the party. But even before we were locked out (and I don't believe for a minute that the refurbishing just coincidently happened after a rush of "cop-outs" arrived, or that the new, more restrictive rules had been planned from before the GSers showd up) it seemed that people were terrified to think, deathly afraid to express an opinion. "Talk to your leadership about this" was the most common anser to any question. One night another poster asked me "were we this bad?" - at first I said "yes", but recalled that 'back in the day' we freely expressed our opinions and argued with leadership; something that could never be done now.

No Mike, it's not a surprise, the only surprise is that any of us got in in the first place.

All of our names that were temporaily on the member list have been removed. (Sorry Roy, they didn't buy your explanation), other than Galen's.

I guess the !'s wedding wasn't the only one with a "spiritual ring", huh Rev. Raf?

duuuude

Who notified you?

CFO = Chief Financial Officer = Treasurer That would be Jean-Yves DeLilse aka The Pink Panther

Great point skyrider. You sure can't "confess a negative" or you "aren't believing". Full sharing would involve all concerns, doubts, and even *gasp* FEARS!

Who are you talking about, Galen? The spell-checking police?

In TWI every so-called miracle was used to prove how it really was the truth we were being taught. Snow on the gas pumps and on the Tulsa airport! Mr. "I-don't-believe-in-your-Jesus" in India! Howard Allen and the beet juice cure! But after a while people became so desparate for miracles that every positive thing that happened was credited to divine intervention. My cold went away in SIX days instead of SEVEN...it had to be God. I was really believing. When something good happens to me that seems to my finite intelligence to be against the odds, I'm just thankful. If someone wants to say that it happened because they prayed for it: well thanks for praying for me! If someone else says praise God for his mercy! Okay by me! Whether it's prayer, or reiki, or magic, or capricious gods, or willing myself into a low-probability quantum reality, it doesn't matter...because I have had something good happen to me! Factoring in the negative may be more realistic, but it's also more depressing :D-->

Despite the fact that some in TWI abused the figurative use of adultery and fornication doesn't negate it's existance. The term "spiritual adultery" refers to, usually in the old testament, Israel and Israelites chasing after other gods. It is described as adultery and fornication; using arguably the worst thing a man or a woman can do to their spouse to describe what could be the worst thing an Israelite could do against their god. TWI, especially in it's later years tried to say that all uses of adultery were spiritual.

Galen will be gone too, the first time he calls the Corps "corpse" :D--> - or maybe the spell-checking police will correct it ;)--> I don't doubt that JB is sincere and truthful about what he's doing, just Waybrained. ANY discussion, any questioning, any deviation from the company line is plain wrong to him. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but his website, despite "no affiliation", reflects the TWI "circle the wagons" mindset...it can't be otherwise. You think that the WayGB lurks here? Do you think that any "innie" posting anything but the "present truth" will escape scrutiny?

It sounds like the problem at work has solved itself, since she is leaving. :D--> My best advice that I can give is to keep calm, don't try to retaliate, and don't accept the negative opinion of others as valid. Most reasonable people will try to be civil at work. There are people that I work with and work for that I don't particularly like, but I am always civil to them. Folks who go out of their way to be nasty, as this co-worker appears to have, have got a problem that goes way beyond what they think of you. Apparently she thought she was more valuable to the company than she actually was, and tried to blackmail the boss into getting rid of you. Looks like that blew up in her face.

For any who have just joined us, the WayGB is real, although someone here at GS actually coined the term. In 2001 I was still "in", but was also a regular poster on Grease Spot Cafe under the handle Twyril. Someone had made the connection between things I had posted on GS and things that I had expressed concern about to my "leadership". Shortly before being kicked out of TWI I was confronted with printouts of many of my posts by the Region Coordinator Tom H. I also believe that my ex-wife was encouraged to read my email and report to the local leadership any suspicious messages. Another poster sent a letter to an acquaintance at HQ regarding a doctrinal issue. She used the postage meter at work. TWI traced the letter to the place where it was mailed from and confronted the person who mailed it. There are plenty of other examples if anyone remembers the specifics.

It is a play on the term "KGB" to describe those in the Way who are tasked to keeping track of what goes on at GS and other anti-Way sites, as well as "smoking out" any "innies" who post here.

Also with due respect...the use of sarcasm and insulting terms may not be considered helpful to some, but maybe it's helpful to the person venting. Maybe some "innies" will be turned off by the heat and even venom in a post, but perhaps it will get the attention of some. Personally, when I first came to WayDale & Grease Spot Cafe, I took it all as a whole; the calm reasoned speeches along with the screaming and sarcasm, and made my decision on what to believe based on an accumulation of all that I read. Also personally :D--> I normally try to present my points in a calm and logical manner, but at other times my approach can be "Screw these @#$&%#'s and the horse they rode in on - they f---ed me over! Keep in mind, that no matter if we present ourselves in a polite and reasonable manner or in a rude and insulting manner, to most of the "innies" we are "cop-outs", we have "left the household" or whatever term of "endearment" that they are now using to describe us. Those who really want to know will wade through it all.

Oh, it's new and spiffy-looking alright, and they've done a fine job of keeping the riff-raff out. --> I especially like the look of this: Yup, let's make sure that any nasty "questions" are funelled through the "leaders". Gotta protect our people from thinking, doncha know. Here's another feature, just in case they unwittingly let a troublemaker register: They fix spelling too...wow! And some of you guys complain about the spelling police here on GS!Several of us were over there a while back, and while a few pointed questions were asked, none of us were rude or insulting, yet posts and threads were deleted. Yet "innies" have complete access to come to GS. John Linder is registered here, Harve Platig had his letter printed here. "Innies" and TWI sympathizers can posts their opinions, question our motives and intents, rip us all new assholes for having the opinions that we do, yet the folks at Family Tables can't allow any open dialog or any opinions that are not officially sanctioned by TWI, despite their non-affiliation. It's their website, and they can do whatever they want, but it points out the cowardly nature of those involved in TWI.

Well, Oakspear looks on the breath! :D-->

excathedra, you obviously are not believing for dental wholeness.

The so-called spiritual significance of numbers reminds me of an example of someone over spiritualizing: (By the way, Bullinger wrote that numbers were figures of speech used in the bible, to indicate and confirm meanings, not that these numbers would have magical significance in the "real" world) I was once asked to sit down with the wayfers in our area to explain several ballot initiatives and referenda in the upcoming election. We had quite a few young wayfers who would be voting for the first time, and several expressed confusion over the wording of some of the things on the ballot and the reprecussions. I started through the various initiatives, explaining what they were intended to do, and what their opponents and proponents said about them, in order that the new wayfer voters would be able to make an informed decision. When I got to Initiative 4, a long-time grad piped up with "and we all know what the Word teaches about the number 4" and began to expound upon how the meaning of the number 4 was a clue as to the consequenses of voting for this initiative. I let her finish, and added that the numbers were assigned randomly, and that the number had no significance whatsoever. Sheesh