Oakspear

In 1979 three carloads of us drove from NYC to New Knoxville for the weekend; attended a Sunday service in the BRC, slept in the cabin. One of the guys claimed that he was receiving revelation on where the cops were so we could safely exceed the speed limit. Until we got that speeding ticket on the way home :D-->

well, there always was quite a bit of "shoveling" going on :D-->

less filling!

I knew it! You're a vampire!I went to an all boys' high-school. No prom for me, although I think that they did have one.

Johniam: The big difference between God and Karma, as I see it, is that believers in the Christian God believe that he wrote a book with plenty of information about himself. It says in the book that God is their sufficiency. I guess you have to figure out what that means :D-->. With karma, there is no supreme being who told anyone "there is such a thing as karma and here's how it works", rather some folks have come up with the idea based on their perceptions of how things work. But I do agree with you that people can and do become overly concerned about how they can get God or karma or whatever to work in their favor, or tip the odds their way.

Cathy: Please excuse me if I don't spell the Greek words just right, but I'm winging it here! One of the countless theological debates "back in the day" was whether Mary should be called christotokos (bearer of Christ) or theotokos (bearer of God). Since the debate was between two factions that both believed that Jesus was God, any consideration that Jesus maybe wasn't God did not enter into the discussion. The translation of "-tokos as "mother" somewhat muddies the watwers regarding the position of the theotokos fans, who wanted to honor Mary for being one who bore God in her womb. The term in no way suggested that Mary was literally God's mother, insofar as she predated him, but merely that she gave birth to God in human form. I am by no means a trinitarian, but suggesting that trinitarians believe that Mary was the mother of the eternal God, rather than the human aspect of God, misrepresents their actual belief.

It's a TWI/PFAL myth that applying the biblical research keys would necessarily yield "the truth" in all cases. Go visit the doctrinal forum and see people arguing opposite sides of an isssue, and both sides can cite scripture to back up their point. Just because we learned something in PFAL, and it still makes sense, and the opposite view seems to not make sense, and we've worked it ourselves, doesn't necessarily mean it's "truth". There are too many points along the way where our own understanding, faulty translations or definitions, or just lack of cultural context could lead us to the wrong conclusion. Yet we feel qualified to judge a church's doctrine as unambiguously "false".

...about how "blessed" everyone is --> -->

...and another thing :P-->... PFAL really wasn't what it was billed as: a class on "keys" It was to promote Wierwille's doctrine, using those keys to illustrate the new and groovy doctrine.

Even if one assumes that Wierwille was "right on" with his PFAL class, is that the best that can be done almost forty years after it was filmed? Can't you PFAL fans take what was learned and expand on it? Build on it? Teach the same basic stuff with your own lame jokes? :D-->

igotout: I think you have clearly and boldly ;)--> made your point! Nonetheless, I think I'll still discuss it, if it's okay with you :D--> The way things turned out pretty much proves our point about lack of openess at TWI, discussion about it here keeps it in the open for any "innie" lurkers, since they can't get real debate on their own site.

Initially I thought Family Tables would be a great opportunity for GSers and "innies" to interact and ask and answer honest questions. Although some of the questions and comments from GSers were pointed, we were all respectful, and played by their rules. What I didn't take into account was that "leadership" was probably paying close attention, especially after we all showed up to crash the party. But even before we were locked out (and I don't believe for a minute that the refurbishing just coincidently happened after a rush of "cop-outs" arrived, or that the new, more restrictive rules had been planned from before the GSers showd up) it seemed that people were terrified to think, deathly afraid to express an opinion. "Talk to your leadership about this" was the most common anser to any question. One night another poster asked me "were we this bad?" - at first I said "yes", but recalled that 'back in the day' we freely expressed our opinions and argued with leadership; something that could never be done now.

No Mike, it's not a surprise, the only surprise is that any of us got in in the first place.

All of our names that were temporaily on the member list have been removed. (Sorry Roy, they didn't buy your explanation), other than Galen's.

I guess the !'s wedding wasn't the only one with a "spiritual ring", huh Rev. Raf?

duuuude

Who notified you?

CFO = Chief Financial Officer = Treasurer That would be Jean-Yves DeLilse aka The Pink Panther

Great point skyrider. You sure can't "confess a negative" or you "aren't believing". Full sharing would involve all concerns, doubts, and even *gasp* FEARS!

Who are you talking about, Galen? The spell-checking police?

In TWI every so-called miracle was used to prove how it really was the truth we were being taught. Snow on the gas pumps and on the Tulsa airport! Mr. "I-don't-believe-in-your-Jesus" in India! Howard Allen and the beet juice cure! But after a while people became so desparate for miracles that every positive thing that happened was credited to divine intervention. My cold went away in SIX days instead of SEVEN...it had to be God. I was really believing. When something good happens to me that seems to my finite intelligence to be against the odds, I'm just thankful. If someone wants to say that it happened because they prayed for it: well thanks for praying for me! If someone else says praise God for his mercy! Okay by me! Whether it's prayer, or reiki, or magic, or capricious gods, or willing myself into a low-probability quantum reality, it doesn't matter...because I have had something good happen to me! Factoring in the negative may be more realistic, but it's also more depressing :D-->

Despite the fact that some in TWI abused the figurative use of adultery and fornication doesn't negate it's existance. The term "spiritual adultery" refers to, usually in the old testament, Israel and Israelites chasing after other gods. It is described as adultery and fornication; using arguably the worst thing a man or a woman can do to their spouse to describe what could be the worst thing an Israelite could do against their god. TWI, especially in it's later years tried to say that all uses of adultery were spiritual.

Galen will be gone too, the first time he calls the Corps "corpse" :D--> - or maybe the spell-checking police will correct it ;)--> I don't doubt that JB is sincere and truthful about what he's doing, just Waybrained. ANY discussion, any questioning, any deviation from the company line is plain wrong to him. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but his website, despite "no affiliation", reflects the TWI "circle the wagons" mindset...it can't be otherwise. You think that the WayGB lurks here? Do you think that any "innie" posting anything but the "present truth" will escape scrutiny?

It sounds like the problem at work has solved itself, since she is leaving. :D--> My best advice that I can give is to keep calm, don't try to retaliate, and don't accept the negative opinion of others as valid. Most reasonable people will try to be civil at work. There are people that I work with and work for that I don't particularly like, but I am always civil to them. Folks who go out of their way to be nasty, as this co-worker appears to have, have got a problem that goes way beyond what they think of you. Apparently she thought she was more valuable to the company than she actually was, and tried to blackmail the boss into getting rid of you. Looks like that blew up in her face.

For any who have just joined us, the WayGB is real, although someone here at GS actually coined the term. In 2001 I was still "in", but was also a regular poster on Grease Spot Cafe under the handle Twyril. Someone had made the connection between things I had posted on GS and things that I had expressed concern about to my "leadership". Shortly before being kicked out of TWI I was confronted with printouts of many of my posts by the Region Coordinator Tom H. I also believe that my ex-wife was encouraged to read my email and report to the local leadership any suspicious messages. Another poster sent a letter to an acquaintance at HQ regarding a doctrinal issue. She used the postage meter at work. TWI traced the letter to the place where it was mailed from and confronted the person who mailed it. There are plenty of other examples if anyone remembers the specifics.