Oakspear

Belle, don't get me started on the Advanced Class Grad meetings. Ours generally consisted of us sittinga round reading the syllabus out loud. -->

I would like to propose that we legislate libertinism. :D-->

If anybody is going to presume to run my life, to make decisions that are going to affect my marriage, my children and my future YOU DAMN WELL BETTER BE PERFECT!!! You're not going to make me and my family your experiment in practical counselling. Figure out how the world works as ex70's houston said, know what the heck you are talking about before you even THINK about telling me what to do.

It's not simply a matter of dgrees of gullibility, but in what way did The Way target our vulnerability? There were very few of my friends and fewer of my relatives who ever attended a Way fellowship. Of the ones who came once and then steered clear, or the ones who read some materials and never came, NOT ONE was able to address any of the doctrinal differences,and only one ever pointed out the potential problems associated with Wierwille's position as MOG. One, a good friend from the fifth grade through college was a WOW in Nebraska the year before I was, and entered the Way Corps. My vulnerability was that I wanted to know about spiritual things, and nobody that I knew, including leaders in my church could give me anything more than their opinion. Those who didn't fall for TWI's bait were either satisfied with what their church was teaching or didn't care one way or another. I recall my brother telling me that he was amazed that I was involved in that "Jesus and God crap". Anyone who was equipped to counter Wierwille's claims biblically wasn't in my circle. Where my own stupidity lie was that I didn't get out when I noticed that there were problems. When I noticed inconsistancies in the doctrine, when I saw practical problems, when I became aware of abuses, I stubbornly held on. Spotting a cult leader should be a lot easier now. I am extremely suspicious of anyone's claims of having the answers.

During the last couple of years of Martindale's reign I started hearing local leadership reprove us for having an attitude that it was "Way Corps or nothing" when it came to committment. In other words, we supposedly thought that only the Way Corps were subject to the rules and controls from HQ, like the no-debt non-policy. The top dogs already had the Corps on their leash, now they were working on everyone else as well.

Diazbro: That's pretty much what they told the Corps when they discontinued the "everybody is on salary" plan. Granted, there were still salaried people left. Suddenly the "full-time ministers" Corps, who were essential for "the Word to prevail" were now to go out and seek full time employment, complete with insurance, since it was now essential that the Corps be in the workplace for "the Word to Prevail"

The details of Charles' & Camilla's private life is none of our business, even if he is leaving CES. :D-->

Giving Corps sponsorship gave what rights over the sponsored? --> You had no right to expect anything other than what was agreed to.

Yeah, Living Sanctified in Obedience is A LOT different than Prevailing in Obedience with Biblical Understanding or Speaking the Truth in Love About Obedience

You're already up to 36 posts, Zippy, and it's not even April yet.

I doubt many people went into the Way Corps with the intention of walking away the day after graduation. I'm sure that a lifetime committment to God was what many Corps made before ever setting foot at a "root locale". But a lifetime committment to moving every three years? A lifetime committment to being in a program? I certianly didn't expect it of the people I sponsored.

I like Aaron's technique rascal...sounds like real life! -->

March/April 2005 magazine tidbits Articles: The Benefits of M*ekness.....by V*nce M*F*dden We equate meekness with doing what we damn well tell you to do, and believe me, that benefits us! We Have A*cess!.....by B*ll G*een ...to your financial records so that we KNOW if your giving 10%+ Reconciled to R*concile!.....by J*e N*viello Can we find bible verses to back up our stupid analogies? Yes we can! Encouraged to F*int Not.....by D*ttie M*ynihan Pay no attention to that reality behind the curtain...look at us! The Promised Land of the P*evailing Word: Building Biblical Understanding Service Highlights for Dec and Jan Isn't "Highlights" an overly optimistic description? M*nners and Customs (on farmer) Manners and Customs of non-European cultures that may or may not have anything to do with the bible W*y C*rps Building Biblical Understanding Oh horsecarp! W*y D*sciples Building The Body Together Letters on A*vanced Class 2004 Brown-nosing: featuring excessive adjectives

Criticisms of PFAL and TWI like this one never helped me "see the light" about our little cult, since it was pretty easy to spot the errors and mischaractarizations, thus they held absolutely no water with me. In fact, after a while I just stopped paying attention. PFAL rebuttals like this do more harm than good.

Hate to be pedantic (okay, I don't hate to :o-->) but research does not mean "to search again". Especially not to re-search stale, error-ridden publications rather thna thinking for oneself.

--> Why would I know that better than anyone here? --> Do I know you? How do you know what Lynn did or didn't tell me? --> Perhaps you don't recognize Lynn's telling of others how to run their lives because you are so free with the advice yourself. I don't believe those words...I do not carry a dead corpse around with me. Nope. We can all say what we want...which is what I was doing. I didn't mention "comfort". Karma is not a provider of comfort, it just is (or isn't) Oh I hear you, just don't agree with you.

While it's (as others have said) none of my business, there is a sort of karmic justice when those who spent a lot of their time telling other people what was best for their lives demonstrate an inability to handle their own.

where are biblical research keys when ya need 'em? :D-->

Well WhiteDove, my neighbor to the south, you did use truth & error, this is true, but it was in rebuttal to Vickles and ex10. They said that things just weren't black and white, you wrote that you disagreed with them... from which I inferred that by disagreeing with those who said it wasn't black and white, it was reasonable to assume that you believed that it was black and white. Are you confused now? I hope so, because that's one of the weapons in my debating arsenal :P--> - confusion...and a fanatical devotion to the pope...ooh...that's two weapons...

No, and stop looking at my behind

If biblical truth is so readily apparent, and black & white, then why are there so many disagreements among and even within denominations? Can they all have an axe to grind doctrinally? Can they all have trouble reading? Pick any topic and you'll find at least two positions on it.

:P--> I guess if I need to explain my humor it ain't funny :(--> but here goes...you said: Get it? Did you forgive him for helping you stay in TWI? Get it? :P--> Okay, if you thought it was good to stay in TWI, then I guess what I said wouldn't be funny. :o-->But hell, I laughed :D-->

Have you forgiven him yet? ;)--> :D-->

And what's YOUR point? That we should continue to revere Wierwille despite his abuses?

Following is a Private Topic Exchange that Rascal and I had this afternoon that we both agreed was germaine to the topic Rascal: I didn't want to derail the topic, or dilute your point on the SAHM's thread, but I wanted to run this by someone...you! Your point about the wife being the "guardian of the home" is interesting. This was something that was taught in varying forms in TWI, and latched onto by my ex-wife. While I think it was very brave, and showed a lot of determination and love for your children AND Mark by doing what you did, it was also a concept that was abused. We often hear on GS about the women who were sidelined and dominated by their men. The voices of the men who were emotionally blackmailed and mentally castrated are not so often heard. Maybe it's because we men frequently don't want to admit that a woman pushed us around, or feel that what we went through was minor compared to what our sisters had to put up with. The man was often reminded that he was "the head". What the heck did that mean? Especially when we were also told that husband and wife were to be in agreement? In some areas and in some marriages it meant that the husband lorded it over the wife and treated her as a second-class believer. What it meant in my area was that the men got blamed for everything, since they were "the heads". My wife would hold up decisions by claiming that, since we had to be in agreement we could not move on something that I thought we should do, nor even discuss it...just to "hold it in abeyance" until we agreed. What that meant was that things would be put on hold until I agreed with her. Her understanding of "guardian of the home" was that everything that happened within our four walls was her decision to make. No "agreement", no discussion, she was "the guardian" and that was that. She did not, or would not see, the contradiction between my wishes being subject to her veto, but her decisions being beyond question and not subject to discussion or debate. Eventually her role as guardian was used as a justification to keep me away from my own children, even when I still lived there. You can see why I initially didn't want to post this. The whole "guardian of the home" concept makes me see red, yet in your case it saved your family, it saved your marriage. By the way... Nope, not at all. I believe that God woke you up. Hooray! posted Mar 15, 2005 3:09 PM I understand how it all helped you, just an example of how TWI twisted good things and sound concepts to gain control. They used the "submissive wife" thing to keep you down, and used "husband as the head" to keep me off balance. You did the right thing for your family, did the right thing in sharing it, and posting it.