Oakspear

Nice beard btw.

Galen: A couple of things: I was speaking generally, although your comments about insurance being gambling did inspire me to write what I did. Yup, I've noted that. Yet you call insurance gambling.Do I understand that they are (according to your view) not gambling when they fit in with your financial plan, or are required by law? Or is gambling okay in these situations? Just because I used "insurance" and "afraid" in the same sentence doesn't mean that I am saying that anyone is afraid of insurance. Maybe it would have been clearer if I said "...rather than avoid insurance because I think that it's gambling". Maybe not. Sometimes you seem determined to misunderstand. But maybe that's just a misunderstanding on my part ;)-->My point is that because some folks believe that insurance is gambling, they will avoid insurance because they believe that gambling is "off the Word", evil, or whatever. Thus the formula: if gambling = evil, and if gambling = insurance, the insurance = evil. I don't believe that gambling is especially evil, I don't believe that insurance is gambling, therefore I have no problem with insurance. None of what I have said should be construed to mean that I think that everyone should have insurance. I don't. If you can work it so you don't need it (which you apparently have in several categories) then don't get it. But lack of insurance should be based on a sound financial plan, not on a belief that taking out an insurance policy is gambling. Other than your statement that insurance is gambling, I don't have a clue as to your motivations, so I'm not making any assumptions about them. However, unless you are saying that gambling is okay in select situations, I don't understand how you can claim that insurance is gambling, yet carry insurance. -->

No doubt that TWI did the things that diazbro described, and I'm sure that some incidents were blamed on deprogramming that were not. That doesn't change the nature of deprogramming, nor make it right. When I was a WOW, and indeed at any other time during my "innie" years, my family had no trouble contacting me; my parents visited me on the WOW field, and even attended fellowships when they visited in later years. I have a cousin who preceded me into TWI by a short time. We took PFAL and several other classes together, were at most functions together, hung out and witnessed together, yet she was out in less than a year, while I was still involved over twenty years later. What? The special brainwashing waves were selective? Maybe she fell asleep during the session where the hypnosis took place. --> Funny how the peak of deprogramming was during TWI-1, which was a lot less abusive than TWI-2.

I beg to differ def: Unless Sunday wasn't "the first day"

If you've got the money set aside, or a dependable income source, to cover possibilities such as untimely death, catastrophic illness, or expensive car wrecks, then you have a choice on whether insurance is best for you. You can weigh the options: is it better to "tie up" some assets in a surety bond and avoid paying premiums to the insurance company, or is it more cost effective to pay the premiums and invest the cash so that it earns more than what the premium is? Not everyone is in that position, however, and for various reasons. I prefer to take advantage of the options available to me, rather than avoiding insurance because I'm afraid that it's gambling. Or is insurance not gambling when the cash-flow is better than having a surety bond? -->

and sure enough, it's the second day, otherwise referred to as Monday

There were certain exceptions to the debt policy, which you were allowed to have and still be eligible to participate in Advanced Class stuff, run a fellowship: child support/alimony and medical bills were two that spring to mind, seems like there were a total of five.

ex-70's: We're discussing your wife on an open forum without her input. See anything wrong with that? If you need help, don't post your dirty laundry for all to see. Maybe she's got her side too.

I agree with Oldiesman . . . . . . okay, the world didn't end :D--> Deprogramming was kidnapping Deprogramming was wrongful imprisonment Deprogramming was assault The rationale behind deprogramming was that we were "in" against our will - the number of people who willingly walked away should have been enough of an indication that that was wrong.

If one were to live a long and healthy life, and have enough assets to care for one's dependents after passing on, then an insurance policy would not necessarily be worthwhile. An insurance policy is a good thing to have when you haven't yet built up enough for your dependents to live on if you were to die an untimely death.I don't look at insurance as gambling, but as contingency planning. I'd much rather be in a position where I had an inheritance to pass on so that my fourteen year-old son wouldn't have to work the coal mines to be able to live in the style to which he is accustomed. :D--> But I'm not in that position at this time. If I was to die today, without insurance, those who depend on my financial support would suffer. Granted, the ideal situation would be to have enough in assets, whether real estate, cash, or what have you so that you could pay all your medical bills without insurance, cover any mishaps with your auto (Nebraska has the option that was mentioned about taking out a bond instead of insurance) or take care of your obligations in case of death. Until I get to that point, I'll have an insurance policy; having one doesn't mean that I'm betting that I'm going to die soon.

Socks: Martindale never specified what he thought that "the act" was that Eve and the Devil in the Blue dress engaged in. Nor did he specify whether Adam's "agreement" was that it was just okay for Eve to be bi, or that Adam wanted a hairy playmate for himself. And you don't need to be a Hebrew scholar to know that his definitions are bogus. Five minutes with a concordance will tell you that God was not looking at his creation with sexual desire when he "saw" it. Same with his crap about homonyms; you don't use the definition for one homonym to explain another. I think the nuns taught me that in fifth grade.

No, you are not :o-->Why is it that so many people accepted Wierwille's definitions in the PFAL class without question? Especially when TWI sold study aides that often contradicted what he said? Part of it IMHO is that he did a pretty good job of demonstrating that most churches were teaching other than what a plain reading of the bible would support. (Read what is written) In doing so he built a trust for what he said and a distrust of what others said. He dazzled us with b.s.

WElcome to the cafe Int'l Skier It's customary to actually read the threads, but to each his own. Hmmm...doubt it -->

Thanks house for the quotes - I added a few of my comments In 2001 I sent my analysis and comments to a member of the Board of Trustees who referred me to my Region Coordinator. TH, the Region guy, listened to what I had to say, then told me that "even if there isn't scripture to back up the teaching, it has to be true because of what we know about homosexuality".

Foghat was one of the bands that introduced me to the blues Rest in peace Rod

Did somebody call me? -->

HCW: My summary has been emailed to you.

Is it the law that you have to be a libertine there? Or is it just strongly encouraged?

I doubt that they believe it, but it's being taught. The wacky teaching is mainly supported by invented or twisted meanings of several Hebrew words. I don't have time right now HCW, but I'll email or private topic you the basics of that nonsense later - I really don't want to derail the thread or put anyone to sleep. :)-->

Belle, don't get me started on the Advanced Class Grad meetings. Ours generally consisted of us sittinga round reading the syllabus out loud. -->

I would like to propose that we legislate libertinism. :D-->

If anybody is going to presume to run my life, to make decisions that are going to affect my marriage, my children and my future YOU DAMN WELL BETTER BE PERFECT!!! You're not going to make me and my family your experiment in practical counselling. Figure out how the world works as ex70's houston said, know what the heck you are talking about before you even THINK about telling me what to do.

It's not simply a matter of dgrees of gullibility, but in what way did The Way target our vulnerability? There were very few of my friends and fewer of my relatives who ever attended a Way fellowship. Of the ones who came once and then steered clear, or the ones who read some materials and never came, NOT ONE was able to address any of the doctrinal differences,and only one ever pointed out the potential problems associated with Wierwille's position as MOG. One, a good friend from the fifth grade through college was a WOW in Nebraska the year before I was, and entered the Way Corps. My vulnerability was that I wanted to know about spiritual things, and nobody that I knew, including leaders in my church could give me anything more than their opinion. Those who didn't fall for TWI's bait were either satisfied with what their church was teaching or didn't care one way or another. I recall my brother telling me that he was amazed that I was involved in that "Jesus and God crap". Anyone who was equipped to counter Wierwille's claims biblically wasn't in my circle. Where my own stupidity lie was that I didn't get out when I noticed that there were problems. When I noticed inconsistancies in the doctrine, when I saw practical problems, when I became aware of abuses, I stubbornly held on. Spotting a cult leader should be a lot easier now. I am extremely suspicious of anyone's claims of having the answers.

During the last couple of years of Martindale's reign I started hearing local leadership reprove us for having an attitude that it was "Way Corps or nothing" when it came to committment. In other words, we supposedly thought that only the Way Corps were subject to the rules and controls from HQ, like the no-debt non-policy. The top dogs already had the Corps on their leash, now they were working on everyone else as well.

Diazbro: That's pretty much what they told the Corps when they discontinued the "everybody is on salary" plan. Granted, there were still salaried people left. Suddenly the "full-time ministers" Corps, who were essential for "the Word to prevail" were now to go out and seek full time employment, complete with insurance, since it was now essential that the Corps be in the workplace for "the Word to Prevail"