Oakspear

Thanks for the book recommendation...I'll look it up. There's scientists who are atheists, and there are scientists who are believers, you get religious beliefs (or anti-religious beliefs) mixed in with what either group says. We haven't interacted much Jerry, but just so you know, I'm not an atheist, but neither do I accept the bible as necessarily true either. and "I do believe in fairies, I do I do" :P-->

dmiller: I too was one of those who came because of the doctrine. I didn't need to find someone who loved me, my family filled that bill just fine, and I had plenty of friends, in the neighborhood and in school. I was impressed by the ability of wayfers to come up with answers when most people I knew just shrugged their shoulders. However, the vast majority of people I knew over the years had no idea what the finer points of the doctrine were, and didn't care. They would have kept coming if Wierwille was teaching reincarnation or fire-walking, as long as the people in the fellowships were nice to them.

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Unless we're talking about the really high income folks, there are going to be reductions in lifestyle choices on both sides. Whether we're dealing with a stay-at-home-mom or a career woman, the same money that supported one household, now has to support two. Add to whatever expenses there were before, at minimum there is an additional rent to pay, a second set of utilities, a telephone, etc. Plus, the new apartment has to be furnished somehow, meals for a single person cost more per capita than feeding a family...it all adds up. Some of us can't afford Johhny's hockey lessons any more because the money is going to rent.

We're a liiiiitle short on water out here Galen :D-->It's not a perfect system, by any means though. I know of instances where women, who are perfectly capable of getting a job, will refuse to do so, in order that their child support will be higher. Thankfully, my ex-wife has not chosen this route, while it would hurt me if she did, the extra child support in our case would not make up for the income she earns. On the flip side, there are men who will stay in a low-income, dead-end job, or frequently quit their job and collect unemployment in order to avoid paying.

Husbands suffer, wives suffer; I've seen it go both ways. It depends on the individual situations. Mileage varies :P-->

Depends on the state.In Nebraska, child support is determined by totalling both parents incomes, and then applying a formula to determine how much of that combined income should go to child suuport. (It is figured on a "curve". The percentage for the 2nd child is less than for the first, the third is less than the second, etc.) The non-custodial parent pays a percentage of child support based on the percentage of the combined income that he or she earns. This can be changed by seeking a Modification of Child Support if income changes dramatically, like when there is unemployment. If I became unemployed, or had my income seriously reduced, I would need to go to court for a modification that would reflect my lower percentage of the combined income.

That which can be measured and quantified, and can be detected outside of an individuals perceptions. For example, something that would not be objective evidence: If I perceived that fairies were communicating with me, but their words were not audible to anyone but me, and they were not visible to anyone but me, there is no objective evidence for thyeir existance. There is also no proof that they DON'T exist either. For that matter, if in addition to me, you, Raf, and pawtucket, and twenty other people communicated with these fairies, then there still would be no objective evidence, because there would be no way to show those who didn't communicate with the fairies that we had. I doubt either of us is fully conversant in what evolutionary theory claims in its entirety (I don't anyway :D-->), but what evolutionary scientists claim is that the theory fits the evidence, as new evidence becomes known, the theory is modified to fit the new evidence. Maybe we'll disagree on this, but "contrary theories", which by which I assume you mean "creation", don't fit the evidence. Doesn't mean that they're not true, but there isn't much beyond scripture to back them up. I can see where, as a believer, you might feel this way, but could you offer a "substantive argument" as to why I don't communicate with fairies?

Shall I have a nurse ready for you?

How much of the crap that went on "on the field" did Wierwille know about? Sometimes I read accounts of teachings and counselling that deviated from what was taught in PFAL, or actions that contradicted what Wierwille espoused publically. Was Wierwille "in the loop"? Or were things done in his name done without his knowledge? I understand that one man couldn't possibly know every detail that went on. But in my opinion the pyramidal heirarchy of The Way Tree made rogue leaders somewhat unlikely. There was always somebody looking over your shoulder. When a leader is acting as a "Corps-Nazi", and isn't reined in or corrected, despite complaints and letters to the MOG, that sends the message that the "Corps-Nazi" behavior is approved.

For those of us who felt that there was a "golden age" of TWI, (even if it was only in your twig) how much of that "sweetness", how much of those "blessings", etc were due to the doctrine taught in PFAL, and how much was due to the personalities of those who were around you? In my opinion, no matter how much lip service we give to the importance of "the accuracy of The Word", it was the love and caring of individuals that drew us in and kept us there. And no matter how convinced we were that TWI was "the only place where the Word was taught" yelling and spitting eventually drove us out.

No, we're on the edge of nowhere, not in the middle :P-->

It's a figurative chapel

I used to think that the Unitarian motto could be "One God...at most", but now that I hear that they're pagan friendly, I'll have to scrap that one :D-->

In August 2003 I met somebody very special, she asked me to dance at one of my favorite bars. A week and a half later she insulted me in my workplace. --> I had to get to know this woman better. Some of you met her in person at the ! wedding last year, and many more of you know her as a chat room regular. My beloved Susie, known at GS as Reikilady, and I will be getting married in the near future. We have not set a date yet, but it may be as early as August of this year. We have a few details to work out before we set the date, but we will announce it here when we know for sure. Some of you know what a freakin' wreck I was in the wake of my divorce, but I have found my soul mate, my better half, my partner. The wedding, whenever it will be, will most likely be a simple affair, but we would welcome any and all of our Greasespot brethren and sistern who would like to attend.

socks: As far as I know, Martindale was not teaching that you could lose that "basic level of salvation". I was in and active through late 2001. However he did talk a lot about the bēma not necessarily being a pleasant experience for what he considered the unfaithful, as well as not having access to the benefits of being "in the household" both in this life and the next. Martindale wasn't that clear a teacher, and certainly could have been misunderstood as he mixed 2 minutes of scripture in with 58 minutes of venom on a Sunday afternoon.

How about a false dilemma? If you are defining "blind denial" as denying the truth of something in the face of evidense to the contrary they're both bad. Not believing something for which there is no objective evidense is different.

...and yes, I know Bullinger came up with it first. If there was ever a guy who could suck the life out of a passage of scripture, it was Bullinger with his anal-retentive attention to detail and over-emphasis on structure and correspondance and all the rest. Smart guy, but give it a freakin' rest

That's right folks, there MUST have been TWO veils, or the whole Word o' God falls to pieces Your humorous example is not that far off from the logic that brought us four crucified, six denials, two enties in Jerusalem, etc. - biblical nit-picking.

Geez, there were always rumors of famous people who got witnessed to, or "almost" took the class...Way urban legends :D--> TWI put out a flyer in the early 80's, Bob Donaldson was in it - the rodeo clown - a bunch of us went to see a rodeo in which he participated in Omaha in 1982. Jim Schoefeldt (sp?) who played hockey for the Buffalo Sabres and later coached the New Jersey Devils was in it as well. Tony Collins was also, if I remember correctly. I don't think that any of those "famous" folks stuck around for long, other than the musicians, most of whom were in Way Productions. My ex-wife, former fellowship coordinator and son all witnessed to the guy who is currently the Secretary of Agriculture, but he wasn't interested. :D-->

Obviously you've been deprogrammed from that insidious Oakspear cult I agree with the susceptibility to different levels of influence. People stayed or left for a variety of different reasons. People who stayed operated at varying levels of involvement and committment. They responded to pressure in a variety of ways. In my observation, wayfers weren't brainwashed, but their options were steadily narrowed. If you didn't believe the premise that the bible was the word of God, then nothing that was said made much sense, but if accepted that, you neded to be convinced that The Way had the correct interpretation of the bible. If you accepted that, and wanted to do God's will, then you limited yourself to either The Way, or being isolated from God. Once you were no longer convinced of any of the basic premises, then the hold was loosened. For instance, after Wierwille died, many folks decided that The Way was no longer following what the bible said, so the hold was loosened for those people. When the news of the lawsuits, and evidense that Way doctrine didn't hold up to close scutiny was made public, the a new group of people no longer were constrained by their belief that The Way was the sole source of bible truth. For some folks the personal relationships, the fellowship, was much more important than the teachings, for those people abusive behavior drove them out the door. I don't think that The Way had any absolute control over anyone, just that they stacked the deck and we didn't check the cards.

IMHO many of the deprogrammers took advantage of the fear that many parents had that their children would be drinking Kool-Aid in Guyana. Others had a sincere (although misguided) desire to free those that they saw as enslaved. Long before anyone knew about Wierwille's sexual abuses, and years before Martindale turned TWI into a fortress of paranoia, people feared The Way because it was different. Because it wasn't what they thought religion should be. Before there ever was a Waydale or a Greasespot Cafe, anti-Way literature focussed mainly on the doctrine, as if there couldn't be more than one view of what the bible was saying in the nation that gave us the First Ammendment. There was criticism of Wierwille's power and lifestyle, as if the heads of many denominations, most notably the Catholics didn't have power and a lavish lifestyle. People were horrified over the tithe, as if no other church in America received tithes. Parents worried about children who changed their behavior and put what they saw as their committment to God above family, community and other ties, as if committment was a bad thing, as if athletes, performers, and others didn't put their chosen path first; and as if constant criticism of what seemed to be the answer to their prayers wouldn't cause resentment and estrangement. Some folks can't see that not everything is the same as their own standards. They fear, they strike out. They send paid thugs to kidnap their children and attempt to brainwash them. What is the percentage of people who were "deprogrammed" compared to the total number of people who just walked out on their own? I'm guessing an insignificantly small one. The "brainwashing" couldn't have been too very effective, could it have?

Always nice to be appreciated Lifted :D-->

Oldiesman never saw the evil leadership in action because they were all chasing after Galen, trying to figure what port he would show up in after he was kicked out once again. They didn't have time for Oldies. :D-->

Actually the bottom line is that I regularly had people screaming and spitting at me to "freely" give.