Oakspear

Some years back my uncle was attending school in Rome and struck up a conversation with one of his professors who happened to have the same last name as his mother's maiden name. Turns out she was a cousin from a long-lost branch of the family that we had heard about from an elderly aunt, but were skeptical existed.

Not much, but there is no rule that states we have to keep threads on-topic :D-->

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

You made some good points about symbolism in this thread in your attempt to connect the World Trade Center to the World Trade Organization, cannot you not see that the connection, attachment, whatever, is not to the buildings, but that they are a symbol of those who died there? Maybe if I was Ayn Rand's character Howard Roark I would mourn the actual buildings, but the emotion, the sense of loss is for the senseless deaths, not for replaceable buildings. Geez, Galen, I apologize for suggesting that you were dense and trying to be an (*), but c'mon, it isn't that tough to understand, whether you agree with the sentiment or not.

Galen: I wasn't clear that I was talking about non-deprogramming-type persuasion, such as a discussion over the kitchen table, or reading literature. Getting locked away and ganged up on necessarily introduces different circumstances.

I heard that Henry Ford took the class ;)-->

I believe that Geer's group had copyrights for use in Great Britain transferred to them, while TWI retained copyrights for the U.S. - I don't know for sure, I've heard different versions, but nothing definitive - both sides have an axe to grind and of course interpret events in their own way Running the class for free would not violate copyright law, just like watching a DVD at home and or reading a book is legal; but copying it, whether you actually own the copy you have in your possession or not, is illegal. TWI always claimed that they owned the physical copies of the class, and that they had the right to reclaim them when the holders no longer stood with them. This sounds right to me, although several offshoots and at least one GS poster kept their copies with a clear conscience. I can't imagine TWI considering the tapes as the property of whoever had possession of them, although it could have been something that they assumed, and didn't properly document. I'm sure that TWI's leaders never imagined the mass exodus that occurred in the late 80's.

Let me open my red drapes and check

Sorry, I don't watch "West Wing", perhaps you should expand your information sources beyond "West Wing", since you are obviously misinformed. LongGone & TaylorCompany make the point about the non-connection between the WTO and the WTC. What about the attack on the Pentagon? Totally unrelated? --> We all have different emotional makeups. We are all affected differently by events of this sort. I don't understand why you feel you must belittle those who were affected. I grew up in NYC, I watched the towers go up when I was in elementary school. I worked less than two blocks from them when I was in high school. So...yeah Yeah, buildings get destroyed by passenger planes flown by fanatical terrorists every year. They were very big buildings Galen, their absence is notable. Are you that dense, or are you being an (*) on purpose?

I don't often laugh, no howl, out loud in a movie theater, but this was one funny movie. Better in some ways than Get Shorty, inferior in others, but I loved it. "What are ya gonna say to him" "No more than I have to...if that" The characters, while caricatures, were hilarious: The Rock as the gay bodyguard who wants to be in movies The Russian mafia boss with the "rug" The white guy who talks and acts like a "homeboy" and dresses like a pimp The black record producer who talks and acts like the Harvard-educated son of privelege that he is when he is at home with his wife and daughter, but in his role as record producer for a hip-hop group beats people up and travels with a "posse" of thugs The hit man who is the most disgusting eater I've ever seen The tough guy hip-hop thug who delicately sips tea while being berated for not acting "gangsta" Steven Tyler maintaining that he wouldn't want a bit part in a movie at this point in his career The speech about the contribution to American culture by African-Americans is passionate and heartfelt, and would be very moving if everyone in the room wasn't pointing a gun at someone else and Vince Vaughn wasn't hanging upside down off the balcony screaming at his tormenters that they can't hit him and dangle him over the balcony Great concert scenes of Aerosmith and Blackeyed Peas - Travlota's & Thurman's dance scene is very, well...VERY! John Travolta is one cool guy in "Be Cool"

Might I recommend Celtic Christianity by Rev. Timothy Joyce? Great book about how Irish spiritual beliefs influenced and still influence Christianity. (shameless plug for my uncle :P--> )

I would accept that as a possibility. Still don't know why you can't accept that some folks, while not physically coerced or "brainwashed", stayed in for reasons other than being "blessed", i.e. fear, unaware of better options, trying to save a marriage, etc. All the people who tell their stories must be wrong about their perceptions, and you must be right --> Most of those who posted here have abandoned their misery...you don't seem to believe it. What did you mean by "TWI left you"?

You don't "need" to do anything :D-->Of course this wasn't referring to you, Galen, but you wouldn't go the funeral or wake of someone you respected? Many of those who viewed the body were people who loved and respected the Pope during his life Noooo..."Ground Zero" is where the world's center of international trade USED TO BE, before cowardly terrorists flew a planeload of innocent people into it. Gee, you can't imagine anyone having empathy for the victims of a tragedy like that? Trefor answered for himself very well, but I too am hit "powerfully and emotionally", yet no one died in my arms or bled on me...despite having family in NYC I didn't know any of the victims. But the first time I drove east toward New York after the attacks the hole in the skyline where the towers USED TO BE was a profoundly sad moment. Looking at a hole in the ground where thousands of people lived and worked, a block and a half where I worked during a teenage summer, was to see an empty void in the city. To see the churchyard fence, festooned with mementos of the dead was to feel part of their pain. What was my connection? Other than they were fellow Americans, struck down without warning by enemies of our nation and way of life? Other than that they were fellow human beings who left spouses and children and parents and friends behind? None I guess -->

Why did I stay in when I was miserable? I believed (rightly as it turned out) that my wife would leave me if I left TWI. I was not willing to make that sacrifice, so I tolerated being "in" so that I could have a chance at salvaging my marriage. It was my choice, but freedom of will and choice isn't the issue being discussed here (or at least it wasn't until you threw your strawman in the road Oldies), but reason why people stayed when miserable. Succumbing to fear isn't being brainwashed; feeling that there are no better options is not claiming that one was mind-controlled, choosing the (perceived) lesser of two evils is still choosing.

Oldies: Of course some people stuck with it over the long haul because they were blessed, or to put it another way, got some profit or benefit out of it. I don't think anyone is claiming that. Why is it so hard for you to accept that some people stayed beyond the period of "being blessed"? That some folks were trying to salvage marriages, or felt that there were no opther options for one reason or another? How nice for you that you left at the exact instant that TWI stopped being a "blessing". --> How spiritually perceptive of you

From time to time the opinion is put forth that things must have been good in TWI, or else why would we have stayed for 10, 15, 20 years? IMHO this conclusion rests on what I believe is a false premise: that the only reason anyone would stay in TWI is because they were "blessed" to be there. In my experience, people often made trade offs. They put up with awful situations because they had convinced themselves, not that TWI was so great, but that the alternative was worse. This is not to say that we were forced in any way, that's not the argument that I'm starting on this thread, just that we accepted a bad situation for fear of being in a worse situation. Some examples: Many people were convinced that only TWI taught "the rightly divided Word". Anything else, despite abuses and misery all around was unthinkable. Some people stuck around because they had a spouse who was sold out, and staying in was preferable to divorce Other folks rationalized that the problems were all due to the "Corps-Nazis" and sooner or later they'd be reassigned and everything would be okay. There were wayfers who had been delivered (or thought they had been delivered) of some "devilish" lifestyle before getting into TWI and were fawningly thankful for not being dead or a junkie, that leaving TWI was unthinkable Some people are just plain stupid ;)--> Now I'm not saying that there weren't people who went through a significant stretch of time in TWI happy, "blessed", and livin' la vida abundancia, but that not everyone who stayed, stayed because they liked it.

From what many here on GS say, things were quite different when the fellowships really were self-governing, self-supporting, and self-propagating. The Way Corps and WOW programs bit into those principles. Even when the Corps were "good guys", it was interfering with the natural growth in the local fellowship. I think that experiment has already been conducted, Dan Of course Wierwille ran his fellowships out of his basement, and brought in folks for "summer school" teaching, but in the early days of PFAL, how much control did he have over what went on in a fellowship? Probably not much, it wasn't until the growth of the Way Corps that such a thing was even possible.

From what I could tell, Wierwille fostered the attitude of "don't ask how high, just jump", and "the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command", and many field leaders would rush to implement the "suggestion" by not asking how high --> Wierwille would wonder why something was being done when it was an ill-considered remark that he had made that started it.

Hell, there is ample documentation that numerous representatives of the Catholic Church in the U.S. sexually molested young boys and that their higher-ups swept it under the rug, and then moved them somewhere else where they could start again. There have been convictions, more than can be said about the leaders of our little cult, not to mention the policy of burning heretics, and the like in centuries past. Yet there are plenty of people who have no problem remaining Catholics. But we weren't capable of making our own decisions -->

When unsucessful attempts are made to argue wayfers out of way-world, the wayfer is either unwilling to listen to any argument, or the argument is unpersuasive. If the argument focusses on abuses or other questionable practices, the wayfer has either already heard about them, and dismissed them as either false or unimportant; or has not heard about them and will question the source of the accuser. It is very easy for a wayfer to deny the truth of any evidence presented, to label the victim as a disgruntled ex-wayfer who is "copped out", or as possessed. Even if the wayfer believes that some or all of the accusations are true, it is possible to minimize them as abberations, or rationalize that the end justifies the means: these things are bad, but they taught me The Word. Arguing against Way doctrine poses other problems. Much of what The Way is also believed by other denominations. The Unitarians and Jehovah's Winesses don't believe in the Trinity, Catholic charismatics, Pentecostals, and other denominations speak in tongues, many groups require tithing; Wierwille drew from so many sources that most of it isn't unique. Most wayfers learn early on to trust Wierwille's definitions and interpretations. Any dismantling of his doctrine will probably require relearning definitions of words that Wierwille changed. Heck, most of us were willing to accept his claim that "some old document", long since lost, was enough to document that illegitimate boys did the bar-mitzvah at age 12, despite any evidence to back up the claim, despite the bible not saying that what Jesus was doing at age 12 was a bar-mitvah...etc. We swallowed Wierwille's definitions of Greek words when we had a lexicon in our hands that defined them differently. To get to the point: people aren't going to change their minds unless they are ready to change their minds. I wasn't ready to listen until I had reached a point where I had sufficient doubt in what I was hearing. The end does not justify the means.

The Malevolent Vibes will keep out all blasphemous and sacriligious food products. (private joke...sorry...shaman thing )

The full name of the church we usually refer to as "Unitarian" is the Unitarian-Universalist Association. There may be other organizations that use the term "Unitarian", but the main one, and most well known is the UUA. The beliefs and practices vary greatly from congregation to congregation and from individual to individual. The first organized Unitarians in the U.S. were Congregationalist churches in Massachusetts who maintained fellowship with the rest of the Congregationalists while rejecting the Trinitarianism of the majority. Later an independent denomination, the Unitarian Church merged with the Universalist Association.

Thanks bro' - that is the plan

Intriguing. And Hawaiian so-called pizzas are banned from the premises, correct? Ya gotta draw the line somewhere :D-->