Oakspear

Both Wierwille and Martindale played fast and loose with definitions of Greek and Hebrew words. Wierwille spent hours of teaching in PFAL convincing you that he knew what he was talking about. How many sessions does he say basically the same thing over and over: The bible is God's Word and is error-free in the original? It's got to be most of the first three sessions, 7 or 8 hours. He did it by starting simple: reading straight from the bible. When he came to a subject where he differed from mainstream Christianity, he still started out by "reading what was written". It wasn't until session four that he started reaching into his bag of tricks with moving commas and interlinears and shifty definitions. But by then, he had established himself as being a straight shooter, interested only in getting back to "the Word"; he built trust in himself and mistrust of the churches. By session twelve he could have told us anything and we'd have believed him. We believed his definitions, his claims about what "the original" said, and his questionable interpretations because he had laid a foundation. Martindale laid no such foundation. Not only did his wacky definitions and doctrines seem crazy to most people with enough gray matter to tip a postal scale, but they did not stand up to the so-called research principles that he was supposedly peddling.

Sure, but my opinion on the benefits of oxygenated water will be worth about as much as anybody else's...not much, if it's based solely on trying a few bottles. By the way, I have checked all the grocery stores in town and have not found any Penta water, or anything else that labels itself as "oxygen saturated" or anything other than "water". There are a few health food and natural food stores I haven't checked yet though, but with the mention of all the grocery stores carrying Penta, I would have thought I could have found some. After all, grocery stores carry what sells. Oh, I've read the whole thread Davey-boy. Your droning is good bedtimes reading, puts a guy to sleep real effectively. Hmmm...read the whole thread? How about this: And that's a warning against medical-grade oxygen cylinders, which are supposed to be filled under much more scrutinized conditions than your local welding-supply shop! For those interested, here's the whole FDA article: FDA Medical Gas Requirements David, you are an ignorant poser who needs to shut the hell up before your stupidity kills an innocent victim before it kills you. In case you're wondering, he didn't say that drinking oxy-water could kill you, just listening to your ignorant spoutings about pressurized oxygen Maybe because he has no evidence to believe it does, and looks for evidence unlike some windbag engineers around here No, but I do get to have an opinion. I am the expert on pizza (Raf - do you ever go to Applebee's? They have a blasphemous Thai "pizza" - what's this world coming to?) Oh, it was DECLARED controversial by one doctor --> I did not use the word "experts" in this thread. As we have been waiting for evidence that it does. You generally can't prove a negative.

Oops...Forty FIVE...one of the cardboard cutouts in the auditorium turned out to be real

News Flash...there are now only 44 people in TWI: they M&A'd a couple who questioned leadership and one of the ventriloquists turned out to be gay

In the mid-nineties Martindale decided to replace PFAL with a new foundational class, eventually named "The Way of Abundance and Power" (WayAP) Aside from whether or not either class was "biblically accurate", or contained truth of any kind, why was PFAL so apparently successful, and WayAP such a flop? One reason, IMHO, was that PFAL had been in existance for fifteen + years when it was filmed; Wierwille had years to work out the bugs and to refine it. Martindale threw it together in less than a year. Another is that PFAL was the TWI foundational class during a time of large growth, fueled by an enthusiastic response to "The Word" by mostly high school and college kids. WayAP was being promoted mostly by grey-haired middle-aged folks, who had lawns to mow and kids' activities to attend as well as careers, with priorities other than witnessing, witnessing witnessing, from morning until dark, from Novato California all the way to Floral Park. PFAL was designed to build from one segment to the next. Wierwille actually tried to convince you of the truth of what he was saying. He also didn't spend an inordinate amount of time shoving the "controversial" doctrines down yout throat. If you aren't paying attention, or haven't been atending twigs, you might let "Jesus Christ is Not God" slip by you in the quick discussion of John 1:1, same with the dead not being alive buried in the teaching about puncuation. It's there, but it's not being beat over your head. Martindale, on the other hand, never misses an opportunity to let you know what an idiot you are for believing that the dead are alive, that Jesus is God, or that abortion is murder. He makes no attempt to convince, or to teach, but lectures in a holier-than-thou manner. He even makes the statement like this in the segment on the first sin of mankind "You don't see it? Well too bad, I do!" Wierwille's country preacher/kindly father figure act was also much more effective than the abrasive jock persona that was Martindale.

There were at least two major negative outcomes to this plan. 1. Many Way Corps had started businesses, or had built reputations in professions, while still running twigs or branches, or even occassionally limbs. They were required to quit their jobs, or sell their businesses or be dropped from the Way Corps. Some even got dropped for other reasons after a few months after quitting their jobs: a doublke whammy! These people got screwed. 2. Imagine a Corps couple, especially if they had no children. They oversee a branch with two twigs, or maybe a limb with four or five...what do they do with their time? Why, the "oversee" people's lives, of course! All day! Every day!

When the "all Corps are full time" rule was rescinded, most of us who were in at the time knew in our hearts that Martindale screwed up; you just couldn't say it out loud. When the full time plan was put into place Martindale even said that if he were to go back to having the Corps work regular jobs, the ministry will have failed. When it actually came down to canning the plan he yelled and screamed at us for thinking it was a failure: it was part of God's plan doncha know - now the Corps can have a greater impact by reaching people at their "secular jobs" that they could not reach before. --> --> -->

Just like my tap water!

If this is critical thinking..hold on while I get my popcorn.. See I thought the fight had already begun... Who said that they're mutually exclusive?

It hasn't been about just water in quite a while!More like critical thinking

Well, you did start the thread, didn't you? He.What's your point? June 2002 was when we switched from the "old" GS to the "new".What's your point? Oh...the point! Steve!, Raf and I are annoying! Not controversial, just dubious. There it is! The claim to divine authority (or at least divine comparison!) Sure, since Jesus was defamed and called a liar, therefore David Anderson will be defamed and called a liar! Good excuse for being a rude twit, David.

Then we better run for the hills, oxygenated water is from the anti-Christ. Come on, it's just fricken water with more oxygen in it. --> Where did you get that from? None of the skeptics are claiming that oxy water is "evil". It's only David Anderson who compares his stance to that of Jesus Christ. Actually no. Confirmation bias and pre-conceived notions are among the things that can cause someone to think that a product is doing something when it is no more than wishful thinking.

Several posters have no life outside of greasespot, and would argue the necessity of using barbless hooks when fishing because it hurts the fish's fealings. Wow! A strawman and and an ad hominem in one sentence. Brilliant! -->

There isn't a problem, but something as simple as water won't hurt to try it and find out for yourself. It's not like taking a med, or something. It's fricken water. First chance I get, I'll try some, but no one is claiming that it's harmful, just that it's claims are bogus[

12, I think

There are only 47 people left in The Way. The illusion that there are more is bolstered by cardboard cutouts, region coordinators maintaining multiple homes in several regions, post office boxes, tapes of people clapping and on-staff ventriloquists.

Weren't the last spate of calculations based on active adult wayfers in the U.S. ? Maybe the 5000 figure includes other countries and children.

Wet grass in the summer always brings me back to the ROA, since it always seemed to rain at the friggin' thing!

When a claim is made that a product does something, why should it be a problem to question those claims? Several posters found inconsistancies between the claims of oxygenated water proponents and what they knew about chemistry and/or physics. Trying something has nothing to do with an understanding of the laws of nature. Why would a knowledge of the laws governing how much oxygen can be dissolved in water be dependent on trying said water? The chief drum beater for oxygen saturated water and founder of this thread has belittled things like double blind tests as uneccessary and comapared his belief in the benefits of oxy saturated water to a belief in the bible.

You are incorrect. The premise was drawn not from a strawman argument, but from the views of an actual GS poster, known as Mike. I don't doubt that you never met such a person, I've only met one! But he is very real, if very UNreal in his views :P-->

Did you install that special filter that screens out any righteous indignation and misunderstanding? Cool! :D-->

Oldies: Okay, one more time... I'm not saying that I didn't encounter "blessings" when in TWI, spiritual or otherwise. What I'm saying that in light of trhe evil that I encountered, and the further evil experienced by folks here at GS who I have gotten to know, it wasn't worth it. Am I saying that the evil erases the good? Nope. Just that I view it as sort of a balance. There was good, there was evil, there was stuff that was neither, it was just there. When I look at the good that I experienced, and balance it against the evil, the good stuff just wasn't that good. The evil side of the balance was heavier than the good side. A lot of the "good" that I experienced was related to my relationships with people in my fellowships. But do I have to see my marriage and family torn apart, be subject to screaming matches and other humiliation in order to have "sweet fellowship"...any reasonable person would say "no". The same with a knowledge of the bible, and of God. Receiving "Keys to the Word's Interpretation" can be done without being abused. Part of where I disagree with some folks (maybe you included) is that I no longer view the bible as THE Word of God, so PFAL as a class to lead me to a greater understanding of the bible doesn't stack up for me. As I said earlier, this discussion wasn't initially about whether there was any good in TWI, or whether folks stayed in due to their own decisions, but about whether the good was worth it in light of the evil. By the way, just so you're clear: I believe that there was good in TWI, mostly because of the rank and file, but good nontheless, although it was progressively swamped by ego and abuse. I don't think that PFAL was all bad, although it was run through with errors, contradictions and doctrines that were abused. I don't believe that I was forced to remain in at any point, but that I was threatened and deceived. I stayed in past the point where I was getting anything out of it because I thought that I had a chance to save my marriage. I do believe that TWI leaders, including Wierwille, are culpable for their deceit, and for hurting many people. They abused the position of trust that they had.

David: Your premises are slightly flawed - There very may well have been 400 people, or one person could have checked 400 times, or anything in between. I for one check this thread every time I see a new post, whether I post or not. I counted 41 posts from Easter until the post where you made the quoted statement, not counting my own. If you, Raf, reikilady, Oldiesman, Steve! and CWF, Belle, Garth, excathedra, Mark, Bluzeman, CM, WordWolf and me (all the people who posted since Easter) each checked once per day you would have your 400 posts (14 people x 28 days @ 1 post per day = 392, but I'm rounding up :D-->), so we don't know that 400 different people viewed the thread, but it seems unlikely, especially in light of multiple posters like you, Raf, Oldies and myself. Censors? Who censored you? Some of us questioned you, some of us used humor to make our points, some of us were just silly. Only the administrator and moderators can censor or control anything, and I don't see that any of your posts were edited. Jerks? While you "clarified" that not everyone is a jerk, you certainly implied that anyone who didn't agree with you, or didn't take your snake-water scheme seriously, or who had a little fun, was a jerk. Leaving out the handful of people who posted just once, or who took your side, that leaves 8 - 10 people that you are calling jerks.

David: http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/ActualErrors.pdf The above link is not to the thread (I don't have the time or the inclination to search for it) but to a summary of the conclusions reached by participants in the thread compiled by Raf and posted on his website (considered a nuisance by TWI ) No one who participated thought that it was entirely error; most thought that there was quite a bit of truth, some thought the errors were small and insignificant All who participated were graduates of PFAL, some who had been in TWI for decades and had virtually memorized the class The point of the thread was to rebut a certain GS poster who claims that PFAL is "the reissued Word of God", for all practical purposes replaces all versions of the bible, and is "god-breathed", and therefore without error.

That would be great Galen, maybe for a doctrinal forum thread...most of us no longer have our notes and our memories are fallible, looking forward to it