Oakspear

When the "all Corps are full time" rule was rescinded, most of us who were in at the time knew in our hearts that Martindale screwed up; you just couldn't say it out loud. When the full time plan was put into place Martindale even said that if he were to go back to having the Corps work regular jobs, the ministry will have failed. When it actually came down to canning the plan he yelled and screamed at us for thinking it was a failure: it was part of God's plan doncha know - now the Corps can have a greater impact by reaching people at their "secular jobs" that they could not reach before. --> --> -->

Just like my tap water!

If this is critical thinking..hold on while I get my popcorn.. See I thought the fight had already begun... Who said that they're mutually exclusive?

It hasn't been about just water in quite a while!More like critical thinking

Well, you did start the thread, didn't you? He.What's your point? June 2002 was when we switched from the "old" GS to the "new".What's your point? Oh...the point! Steve!, Raf and I are annoying! Not controversial, just dubious. There it is! The claim to divine authority (or at least divine comparison!) Sure, since Jesus was defamed and called a liar, therefore David Anderson will be defamed and called a liar! Good excuse for being a rude twit, David.

Then we better run for the hills, oxygenated water is from the anti-Christ. Come on, it's just fricken water with more oxygen in it. --> Where did you get that from? None of the skeptics are claiming that oxy water is "evil". It's only David Anderson who compares his stance to that of Jesus Christ. Actually no. Confirmation bias and pre-conceived notions are among the things that can cause someone to think that a product is doing something when it is no more than wishful thinking.

Several posters have no life outside of greasespot, and would argue the necessity of using barbless hooks when fishing because it hurts the fish's fealings. Wow! A strawman and and an ad hominem in one sentence. Brilliant! -->

There isn't a problem, but something as simple as water won't hurt to try it and find out for yourself. It's not like taking a med, or something. It's fricken water. First chance I get, I'll try some, but no one is claiming that it's harmful, just that it's claims are bogus[

12, I think

There are only 47 people left in The Way. The illusion that there are more is bolstered by cardboard cutouts, region coordinators maintaining multiple homes in several regions, post office boxes, tapes of people clapping and on-staff ventriloquists.

Weren't the last spate of calculations based on active adult wayfers in the U.S. ? Maybe the 5000 figure includes other countries and children.

Wet grass in the summer always brings me back to the ROA, since it always seemed to rain at the friggin' thing!

When a claim is made that a product does something, why should it be a problem to question those claims? Several posters found inconsistancies between the claims of oxygenated water proponents and what they knew about chemistry and/or physics. Trying something has nothing to do with an understanding of the laws of nature. Why would a knowledge of the laws governing how much oxygen can be dissolved in water be dependent on trying said water? The chief drum beater for oxygen saturated water and founder of this thread has belittled things like double blind tests as uneccessary and comapared his belief in the benefits of oxy saturated water to a belief in the bible.

You are incorrect. The premise was drawn not from a strawman argument, but from the views of an actual GS poster, known as Mike. I don't doubt that you never met such a person, I've only met one! But he is very real, if very UNreal in his views :P-->

Did you install that special filter that screens out any righteous indignation and misunderstanding? Cool! :D-->

Oldies: Okay, one more time... I'm not saying that I didn't encounter "blessings" when in TWI, spiritual or otherwise. What I'm saying that in light of trhe evil that I encountered, and the further evil experienced by folks here at GS who I have gotten to know, it wasn't worth it. Am I saying that the evil erases the good? Nope. Just that I view it as sort of a balance. There was good, there was evil, there was stuff that was neither, it was just there. When I look at the good that I experienced, and balance it against the evil, the good stuff just wasn't that good. The evil side of the balance was heavier than the good side. A lot of the "good" that I experienced was related to my relationships with people in my fellowships. But do I have to see my marriage and family torn apart, be subject to screaming matches and other humiliation in order to have "sweet fellowship"...any reasonable person would say "no". The same with a knowledge of the bible, and of God. Receiving "Keys to the Word's Interpretation" can be done without being abused. Part of where I disagree with some folks (maybe you included) is that I no longer view the bible as THE Word of God, so PFAL as a class to lead me to a greater understanding of the bible doesn't stack up for me. As I said earlier, this discussion wasn't initially about whether there was any good in TWI, or whether folks stayed in due to their own decisions, but about whether the good was worth it in light of the evil. By the way, just so you're clear: I believe that there was good in TWI, mostly because of the rank and file, but good nontheless, although it was progressively swamped by ego and abuse. I don't think that PFAL was all bad, although it was run through with errors, contradictions and doctrines that were abused. I don't believe that I was forced to remain in at any point, but that I was threatened and deceived. I stayed in past the point where I was getting anything out of it because I thought that I had a chance to save my marriage. I do believe that TWI leaders, including Wierwille, are culpable for their deceit, and for hurting many people. They abused the position of trust that they had.

David: Your premises are slightly flawed - There very may well have been 400 people, or one person could have checked 400 times, or anything in between. I for one check this thread every time I see a new post, whether I post or not. I counted 41 posts from Easter until the post where you made the quoted statement, not counting my own. If you, Raf, reikilady, Oldiesman, Steve! and CWF, Belle, Garth, excathedra, Mark, Bluzeman, CM, WordWolf and me (all the people who posted since Easter) each checked once per day you would have your 400 posts (14 people x 28 days @ 1 post per day = 392, but I'm rounding up :D-->), so we don't know that 400 different people viewed the thread, but it seems unlikely, especially in light of multiple posters like you, Raf, Oldies and myself. Censors? Who censored you? Some of us questioned you, some of us used humor to make our points, some of us were just silly. Only the administrator and moderators can censor or control anything, and I don't see that any of your posts were edited. Jerks? While you "clarified" that not everyone is a jerk, you certainly implied that anyone who didn't agree with you, or didn't take your snake-water scheme seriously, or who had a little fun, was a jerk. Leaving out the handful of people who posted just once, or who took your side, that leaves 8 - 10 people that you are calling jerks.

David: http://www.livingepistlessociety.org/ActualErrors.pdf The above link is not to the thread (I don't have the time or the inclination to search for it) but to a summary of the conclusions reached by participants in the thread compiled by Raf and posted on his website (considered a nuisance by TWI ) No one who participated thought that it was entirely error; most thought that there was quite a bit of truth, some thought the errors were small and insignificant All who participated were graduates of PFAL, some who had been in TWI for decades and had virtually memorized the class The point of the thread was to rebut a certain GS poster who claims that PFAL is "the reissued Word of God", for all practical purposes replaces all versions of the bible, and is "god-breathed", and therefore without error.

That would be great Galen, maybe for a doctrinal forum thread...most of us no longer have our notes and our memories are fallible, looking forward to it

Dee Snider from Twisted Sister and House of Hair and the rest of TS. (Before they were famous) Matt "Guitar" Murphy from the Blues Brothers and Chicago blues fame (interviewed him when I was a radio deejay) Rafael Olmeda

damn reporters :P-->

...and their opening act, The Pauls?

What's your point Oldies? That I really received "something of value", but have talked myself out of it? Can you clarify please? I'll continue as if that was your point, correct me later if needed.And by the way, the question being asked is not whether there was or wasn't anything beneficial about being involved in TWI, but whether it was worth it in light of negatives associated with it. I got involved in TWI because PFAL seemed like a cool bible class. I was interested in the bible, wanted to know more about it. I believed that it was truth back then, I longer believe that it is. Therefore any perceived benefits (to me) based on my opinion that PFAL was teaching truth are now null and void in my opinion. I liked many of the people who I encountered in TWI, but fellowshipping with loving, like-minded people was an experience that pre-dated my TWI involvement, and continues to this day. I learned a lot of things while in TWI, but I don't believe that any of them were unique to TWI, nor do I believe that I would have never learned them without my TWI involvement. There were good times, good people and some learning while I was involved in TWI, none of it was worth the crap I went through later, and certainly not worth it in light of the other abuses that took place. But then, I said this already, didn't I?

Raf started the "Actual Errors in PFAL" thread.

Was it worth it? Was what worth it? What "benefits" did I receive that were "worth" something? Learned to love God - I learned that from my parents first Learned that the bible was the Word of God - Learned that from my parents too Great fellowship - Had this with my parents and siblings and cousins, and some of my friends. Had it with some of the parents of the other Boy Scouts. Have it with some of the people that I work with, and with my lovely fiancee Learned to "work the Word" - That's not worth a rat's foot IMHO - I learned how to make the bible reflect Wierwille's opinion, there's plenty of folks out there who "work the Wrd" and come up with other points of view In retrospect, there really wasn't anything that I got out of TWI that I hadn't already gotten before.