Oakspear

There were a smattering og women in the seventies, but it seems that after a time women had to be satisfied to be MARRIED to the revs.

Wow! Infanticide & genocide: two great reasons to follow the god of the OT!

I could've read it earlier today, our book supplier dropped off three copies this morning to put on our shelves at 12:01! But I just locked them in my bosses office. The hungry looks on the faces of the store's Potterheads was frightening. = 0

Just a bit of whimsical alternate history, oh husband of the ten cow woman ; - ) I just wonder sometimes whether God was REALLY answering our prayers when Way people showed up at JUST the right time. Many of us look at our early Way days as godly, but something that we outgrew, or got out of when it got UNgodly. In my alternate history version (ever read Harry Turtledove?), the person God sent to answer your prayers was late, and was frustrated that you got witnessed to before he got there. Not a cut against your friend Anne Marie, or you, or your belief that it was "of God" that you hooked up with The Way. Just another look at "witnessing" through the eyes of a science fiction fan. PT me if you need any more JL, I am currently unable to START PT's, but I can participate in them.

Jonny Lingo: Methinks you misunderstood me. I wasn't suggesting anything carnal.

Good point Highway. I believe that attitudes like you describe (I frequently thought and acted that way myself) were a result of a disconnect between what we were told (Way Corps are special, the best of the best, to be obeyed without question, etc) and what we saw (typical flawed human beings, some of whom abused their influence) Frankly, I had little patience for a Corps grad saying "oops, I made a mistake, I'm only human" after pressuring me to take action that turned out to be harmful to me and my family. If I'm expected to obey you without question, often against my better judgement, then you d*mn well BETTER be 100% right!

No disresect to your testimony LJ, but I had this mind picture of a Christian peering around, squinting into the distance: "Crud, where IS that Jonny Lingo guy that God sent me to? Oh CRAP! There he goes with that chick in the sailor suit! Waaaaiiittt!!!!!"

Another thing to remember is that most little league and YMCA coaches and officials are volunteers. This may not always be the case, and some officials recieve a small fee, but for the most part men and women volunteer because they love the game, and they love teaching kids. My soon-to-be stepdaughter is playing basketball this year. It burns me to hear parents accusing the referees of favoritism game after game after game. And the coaches are sometimes just as bad. Personally, I usually make an effort to shake the officials hands and tell them "good job" after each game. It often surprises them. Umpires and referees are not perfect, they WILL miss calls. If "my" team loses by a close margin due to a perceived bad call, my answer is that you need to allow for that and score more points! Recently I was drafted as a timekeeper for a middle school girls basketball game. It's a pretty simple job, but you have to pay attention. The clock was not displayed so that all could see, but was only visible from the officials table; I would give a verbal warnings of the time left to the coaches and the refs as the clock wore down. At the end of the second half I yelled "time" just before one of the girls got off a shot, which then did not count. The girl's coach came charging at me and began to yell at me. I looked him right in the eye and said "I am a volunteer, do NOT mess with me - the call stands"!

I was never a league official of any kind, but I was a coach in several different sports when my sons were younger. Most parents were fine, but there was always a vocal minority who thought that THEIR kids should play the whole game, should play only the positions that they wanted to, and were full of advice to the coaching staff. When my oldest son was ten I was an assistant track coach. On the first practice of each season the head coach would take all the parents into the bleachers while I had the kids stretch and warm up. He would ask if anyone wanted to volunteer to be an assistant coach. Anyone who volunteered was sent down to the track with me and the kids. The remainder were given a speech something like this: "I am the coach. That means that *I* coach the kids. *I* decide what events that they will compete in, and what events they will not. *I* will determine how to best teach your children how to be runners. I expect you to back me up and not undermine me when you are home. If there is ANY reason why your child CAN NOT do what I ask him or her to do, I expect you to talk to me privately before practice or call me at home. If you want to volunteer to help, the offer is still open. Remember, however, that I'm STILL the coach if you volunteer, but I can use the help. If you do not want to volunteer, you can best help your child get the most out of this experience by sitting in the stands and cheering. If you cannot abide by these simple rules, you may withdraw your son or daughter and receive a full refund. He delivered this all in a calm, quiet, reasonable voice. No one ever crossed him. The kids loved him, and learned to both enjoy and excel in track and field.

After leaving TWI I went to a service at a church in the denomination that I had left when I joined TWI. The minister talked about how his church was the only true church and that if folks in other denominations wanted to go to heaven, then they would have to come around to his group. Oops...gotta go. I spent a lot of time reading, studying and searching my own heart to decide what I wanted to believe, and have gone in a different direction spiritually than Christianity. Although the choir at midnight Chistmas Eve mass 6 weeks after my ex-wife gave me the boot sounded great, especially after the "specially fortified" egg nog.

I wasn't raised in The Way, having gotten involved at age 19, but I did raise six children while involved in TWI. My three oldest, all adults in their early to late twenties right now, have talked with me about their experience several times in the last year. None want anything to do with the organization or it's offshoots, and recognize that it was a cult. They are all very forgiving about my own foolishness as a waybrained dad, except my oldest son says that he may never forgive me for throwing out my Eric Clapton albums under pressure from his waybrained mom! ; - )

"The Elena Whiteside" book was caled "The Way- Living in Love". It was written in the early or mid seventies, I believe, and talks about events at Way Int'l HQ during a week in 1971 or 1972. The First and Second Way Corps , including Martindale, were in residence. It paints a very rosy picture of life at HQ, and present things in a very hippy-dippy, lovey-dovey way. It includes interviews with Wierwille about his early days. The Way bookstore stopped distributing it a few years back, partly because the author was no longer with TWI, as were most of the people discussed in the book, and it was replaced as an "historical" book by Wierwille's wife's book "Born Aagin To Serve".

My remark about a "universally recognized calendar" wasn't to suggest that such a thing is desired, only that, since we have not used the same calendar uninterrupted since biblical times, exact dating is sometimes not possible. If I remember correctly from JCOPS, Wierwille cites four dates put forth by historians as the eclipse that preceeded Herod the Great's death. When attempting to fix a date, scholars often have to cross-reference several systems of dating in order to come up with an estimate. Regarding my reference to Arabic names of the stars, I agree that names in Arabic would give a fairly reliable indication of the "original" names (assuming that the "original" language was Semitic). What I have a hard time with is Bullinger's suppositions about these names being touted (by himself) as cold, hard, fact. Admittedly, he builds a fairly plausible framework from the clues given, but by no means is it set in stone. I can definitely see, however, how the tidbits offered up by Bullinger's work, and Wierwille's JCOPS could whet the appetite for more, and undoubtetly COULD be the way things are.

GS an offshoot? That would take an extremely wide definition of "offshoot". Personally I agree with Catcup's observation that the thing to do is chuck it all and start over (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting) since any truth in TWI would surely be encountered again in the course of one's own study.

Diazbro: Good post, good points. Might I add to your observation about sheer numbers that during the years of explosive growth there just weren't enough Way Corps grads to effectively control things. There were many twig and branch leaders without Corps training, and many who were not even Advanced Class grads. Not to say that every Corps grad was controlling or that every non-Corps leader wasn't, but it's difficult to push bad policy when several links in the chain haven't bought into the company line.

A similar policy that is not a policy is the "directive" to stay off the internet. Or the "policy" to not allow internal dissension. I was thrown out for both, although I was constantly told that it was my free will.

TWI weasels around their requirements on so many things by claiming that their followers have free will to follow the teachings or not, but that if they do not, then the consequenses are on their own heads. Sure, you can be in debt, but you will not be allowed to be a leader, enter their "outreach" program, take any classes beyond their foundational offering, or participate in the events of TWI beyond those open to the general public. You will, if you continue to attend local fellowships or listen to taped teachings from HQ, be subject to derision and called weak and "off the Word" for exercising your free will to be in debt. In short you have the "free will" to be a pariah.

My problem is that I like food too much! If I was being served something that I really liked I would just pig out. Living alone didn't help, since for many meals it is difficult to cook small enough batches for just one. I'd have enough for a meal and a couple of meals of leftovers and I'd eat it all in one sitting. Many restaurants serve portions that are WAAAAY too big IMHO. I'm not fat by any means, but I do have a spare tire that I'm not happy with. I've been 210-215 lbs for quite a while, but don't appear to weigh that much due to a combination of good posture and and loose clothes! ; - ) About 2 1/2 weeks ago I decided to do something about it. I've cut out desserts (I could easily down a half quart of coffee ice cream in one sitting), soda and other sweets, and simply limited my portion size. I also used to snack late at night, and have cut that out as well. I've been exercising daily and lifting weights, and reikilady & I have been walking after meals. I set a goal of reaching 195 lbs, but did not set a time frame. When I started keeping track I was 211 lbs. I was at 201 this morning. The first few days I was having some serious craving for sweets, and gave my stash of cream soda to reikilady's daughter to avoid temptation. Work is tough sometimes, since I am virtually surrounded by food! After almost three weeks I am used to the lower intake level, and have stoppin jonesin' for snacks! I'm not recommending anything, but that's what's working for me. (Isn't the cabbage soup diet what Charlie and his familyt were on in "Willie Wonka"?)

There were several leaders in our area who were always talking about how you can own a house and not be in debt. One was a guy who was up top his foot in debt, including loans on a number of rental properties. He was very prosperous financially, but he got that way by being in TWI's definition of debt. By the time he got involved in TWI he was able to liquidate his rentals and pay off his home with the profits. He was held up as an example of God "prospering" a family, but his prosperity came BEFORE he took PFAL. The other guy was always coming up with complicated schemes for buying a house without being in TWI-defined debt. No one ever knew anyone who tried one of these schemes. HE owned a home, but he inherited it from his parents when they died in a car wreck. He was also held up as an example of God "prospering" a family.

They don't have a "policy" on debt and what people are to do with their finances, YET, they have a teaching about not being in debt, which is a REQUIREMENT for certain classes, these classes being the bread and butter of TWI. Weasel words, plain and simple.

How did we go from being the rebellious kids leaving our parents' religion to the old fogeys whose religion the kids were running from?

Thomas: I agree that JCOPS is the best documented of Wierwille's books. It's logically put together for the most part, and he cites his sources. He blends astronomy, secular history, biblical commentary (i.e. Bullinger), with his own doctrine rather well, I think. The quote you posted about the meaning of the planets not be able to be "affirmed with finality" was interesting, he didn't often committ to print such qualifications. However, the thing that always bothered me about the way TWI looked at JCOPS was that it was viewed as the final word on the subject, and EVERYTHING in it was regurgitated as if there could be NO OTHER possible explanation. My first take on it was "Wow! This is cool - it sure is a plausible explanation!" , but didn't see that the chain of supposition was necessarily the ONLY answer. Part of it goes back to Bullinger, IMHO much of "Witness of the Stars" is comprised of tenuous assumptions. One star in the constellation was called such-and-such in Arabic, so OF COURSE, the constellation of the rabbit REALLY should be the constellation of the victorious redeemer! Another thing that has bugged me is the constellations. The 12 zodiacal groupings can be seen from anywhere in the world, however the arctic constellations, such as the Dippers and Draco, cannot be seen in the southern hemisphere, I believe below the tropic of Capricorn, just as there are southern constellation that cannot be seen up north. So this great "Word in the Stars" thing was only available for those who lived in the northern hemisphere? One more thing: I'm not 100% convinced that Wierwille's dating of rulers was correct. There is too much uncertainty about dates, since there was not a universally recognized calendar, and years were usually counted from the beginning of a ruler's reign. Okay...I'm done...except for an amusing anecdote. When Wierwille was alive, he used to make the statement, after quoting from Psalms where it says that he stretches the empty spaces over the north or something like that - "...and that's why there are no stars in the north". I used to always scratch my head at that; what PART of the north is he talking about. Years later Martindale "clarified" matters by explaining that the "north" that Wierwille was referring to was the "gap" between the Big and Little Dippers that you can see on Bullinger's star map in "Witness of the Stars". Well, go outside on a clear night, especially if you aren't too close to big city lights, and you can see that there ARE stars in the "gap". I figured that Wierwille must have meant that there are no CONSTELLATIONS in the far north of the sky, i.e. between the Dippers. One night, a young man in our fellowship, fresh from a session of WayAP wher the "Word in the Stars" is covered, was babbling on about "no stars in the north", and how that empty "gap" extends infinitely far, and how God designed it that way...yada, yada, yada. I suggested to him and his parents that he was wrong, and invited them to go outside and observe the stars in the "gap". Their answer was to ignore my offer, but to "ask the class coordinator" about it. After asking the coordinator, they received the answer that back in the days when the bible was written there weren't high-powered telescopes, and additional stars had been discovered with those telescopes that had not been visible 2000 years ago. *sigh* I declined to point out that city lights and pollution DECREASED the number of stars that you could see with the naked eye, and GO OUTSIDE AND LOOK AND YOU'LL SEE THE FRIGGIN' STARS IN THE FRIGGIN' "GAP" WITH YOUR OWN FRIGGIN' EYES. *sigh* Oh yeah, revelation trumps the five senses

All those years of reporter school have finally paid off. Congrats!

Seems like there's LESS oxygen getting to a certain brain lately.

Well, THAT was certainly conciliatory!