Oakspear

Roy: Are you mad at me?

Thanks Roy -->

She calls us into chat and isn't there...hrumph where's Tito?

White Dove: While I will admit to the possibility that there are people who decided that the bible was "full of holes" only because of the misdeeds of TWI "leadership", you don't see too many of them here. Most GSers who no longer subscribe to biblical inerrancy do so because of careful study, or thoughtful introspection, not due to a fit of pique over extramarital affairs, drambuie, or spittle ;)-->. You are engaging in the logical fallacy of "attacking a strawman". No one in this thread is making the case that you are arguing against. Your example of the schoolteacher is a false analogy, since it does not compare with the actual beliefs of those who have decided that "the bible is full of holes".

They've apparently made official what's been the de facto policy for years. In the past, any research that didn't line up with what Wierwille or later, Martindale was teaching was ignored, or the researcher was directed to line up his thinking with the company line. What's the good of research that has predetermined results? As much as Wierwille railed against the churches doing it, he did it himself. Any deviations from official research, or even questions about it, was referred back to a Way publication, or a tape, or a quote from a class. A few years ago, Belle & I presented the same questions about a topic to our respective "leadership", and each got basically the same answers: quotes from the very publications we were questioning, and long explanations about the analogy that supposedly explained the doctrine. Yeah, maybe they are getting "honest". The past generations of wayfers actually used the research tools that they'd been taught to expose the lies

No, I think that the bible is full of holes because that's the way it appears to me, not because of corrupt teachers. I do admit that the corruption and hypocrasy of TWI leaders is what motivated me to start questioning.

I like part 2 better Thanks Roy -->

How about reading all the "greetings from the field" on the phone hookups on Pentecost, Anniversary, etc.? Minute after minute of flowery brown-nosing. Some of the most agonizing stuff was from my last Twig leader. Not Way Corps. He would drag on his teachings for 45 minutes, sometimes more; and this wasn't a Limb meeting, just a twig, when people had to get up for work or school in the morning. His "introductory remarks" would go for twenty minutes. He'd go on and on, and when you THOUGHT that he'd made his point, and it SOUNDED like he was concluding, he go on some more. During this time it was suggested from on high that teachings be 15 or 20 minutes; so he would reprove anyone ELSE who exceeded this time frame! Not only did he bore us all with his long teachings, but when he was leading, his announcements would turn into teachings. Even if he was neither leading nor teaching, he would manage to weasel in to say something that would go on and on. And you would often get to the end and wonder what the point of it all was.

Even assuming, for arguments sake, that TWI is "right on", how can they say that there is nothing else out there when there are splinters/offshoots teaching virtually the same thing?

I don't know it was answered prayer, but just getting through our WOW year approached miraculous. :P--> I do recall a funny WOW story that kinda relates to divine intervention: "Leadership" decided to move us mid-year from western Nebraska, to a city more in the central area of the state. Just before we moved my WOW sister and I invited Jerry, the pastor of the local Foursquare Gospel Church over for coffee so we could say goodbye. He had been our nemesis for the first six months, but I believe a wary and grudging respect grew between him and us. (He had actually attended twigs during his college days at the University of Kansas) Anyway, Jerry asks us if we are going to miss xxxx and xxxxx, our other two WOW family members. We looked at each other in confusion, and asked him what he was talking about. He told us that The Lord had revealed to him that xxxx and xxxxx were staying and the we were going (or maybe it was the other way around). My WOW sister looked him right in the eye and said "Well, The Lord threw you a curve, Jerry", and proceeded to tell him what was really going on :D-->

I appreciate the thought, but it's timing, as well as money. We are getting married in mid-September, this means time off from work, as well as all the attendant expenses. We are moving shortly before that. More expenses, more time off from work. In addition to time off from my job, Reikilady has just started a new job. Bosses just love new employees taking a lot of time off :P--> She also is committed to working at a trade show in Omaha that weekend, which I am assisting. In the past several years I have used a lot of my disposable income for travelling: Two Weenie Roasts, three trips to New York, The ! wedding and another visit to Chicago for my son's graduation from Naval basic training, as well as a 4000-mile tour that brought me to 12 cities in 14 days, to visit family and GSers. This year the priority was twofold: save up for moving and marriage, and get out of debt. In a few weeks I will have made the final payment on a mountain of credit card debt that has been weighing me down for seven years. I've accelerated the payments in order to be debt-free by mid-August. So, yeah, I'd love to be there, and I'll miss youse guys, but maybe next year for the frith ;)-->

Which is NOT the same as not knowing what that purpose is, if there was one

"I see the 'rational society' arrived right on schedule !! One thing that bugs me and the 'rationalists' haven't been able to answer this one," Hey! That's more than one thing! "Who are we?" Beings evolved just enough to mess things up, but not evolved enough to truly figutre out how to fix it "where did we come from?" We came from here "how did we get here?" See last answer "what is our purpose?" Don't believe that we necessarily HAVE one. That would imply someone GAVE us this purpose, which, IMHO, may or may not be the case "and where are we going ??" Wherever we choose, constrained, of course, by our own limitations and the limitations of our envirnment

Sudo, I am truly going to miss rooming with you this year (and the better-than-sex stew too )

Got it C, thanks btw, we found a place to live

14 lbs. and 2 1/2 inches from my waist in a little over a month on the Leinenkugel diet ;)-->

I hope you're joking ;)--> - I'd love to try some of that "special" water, despite being on the "other side" on that thread. Personally, I like the "water" that is carefully aged in oak barrels down in Lynchburg, Tennessee :D-->

My first ROA was the first one that was back at "the farm" after being at Sidney or Lima for a while. I totally loved it. First, I loved road trips. My buddies from high school and I would head out to The Hamptons every summer for a "fishing trip" (translation = beer drinking excursion), and occassionally would head up into the mountains for a few days. In 1978 I had been a PFAL grad for less than six months, and was asked to share driving duties with a woman whose husband was at HQ taking the advanced class and staying for ROA setup. Me and her and three little kids. We caravanned with two or three other cars. We pulled into the big parking lot in the wee, dark, hours of the morning, and I promptly fell asleep in the front seat. I was amazed at how many people were there in the morning. My twig leader made arrangements for me to stay in his hotel room in Celina, but neglected to tell me that twelve others would be in the room as well. I was on my own getting to and from the ROA grounds, since the folks in our room who had cars would often have to be there early for one reason or another, and I was more into sleeping in, then drinking coffee in tent city past midnight, so I did a lot of hitch hiking back & forth. There were lots of people to talk to, plenty to see, and the teachings in the "Big Top" were fun for me. Whatever else can be said about Wierwille, he knew how to work a crowd. I left there after the six days tired, but happy, and looking forward to ROA '79 ROA '79 was fun as well. I took a plane to Fort Wayne (my dad was an airline employee and I got a discount) and hitch hiked to New Knoxville. I was to meet two buddies, one who was going out WOW, in Sidney the night before the ROA was to open. They had my clothes and my tent, but they did not show up on time. I called my sister in NY and asked her to ask around (one of the guys was a family friend and my sister knew his sister). She found out that the lads had not left yet, due to car troubles. Since I had no change of clothes, and no toiletries, I was beginning to get a little aromatic. I was able to shower at the hotel (looking back I am amazed that I was able to get a room at all) but had to put the same smelly, dirty clothes back on. I ended up buying a "Way Int'l" golk shirt and a pair of gym shorts so I could have some clean clothes. I finally hooked up with my buddies sometime on Monday. 1979 was also the year that we almost got thrown out of the Rock. The two guys with the poorly running car, myself, and a few miscellaneous smartasses, were drinking coffee near tent city late one night and were starting to get loud. A Bless Patrol guy, with a blue hat perched atop his cowboy hat, asked us to shut it down. We politely (or politely for New Yorkers ) declined. The next thing you know, a posse of blue and white hats and a forest of green & white nametags descended upon us, and "persuaded" us that we really didn't want to cut our stay at the ROA short :P-->

second to last paragraph is Satori - I forgot to put quotes around it and I can't edit.

"Okay, so when it comes to all manner of new age voodoo, the burden of proof is upon the skeptic to show that it doesn't work. Is that the new standard?" Of course not. The burden of proof is on the one with the "new age voodoo" as you call it...if...they were trying to prove anything. "If something like "reiki" adds a nice diversion and provides a good massage, fine. But if the practitioners bring in their bias against modern medicine, it can interfere with the best chance the patient has." Agreed, but personally, I haven't seen it. I don't know of any reiki folks who encourage people to stay away from doctors. Or even to substitute reiki any mainstream medical treatment. You think I've made up my mind? Exactly the opposite. On the other hand, a lot of reiki practitioners (and every other "alternative healing" shell game) are out there peddling a sense of certainty to people who can't afford it. Maybe, I haven't seen them personally, but I'm sure that it happens somewhere. Certainty? I've not seen a reiki practicioner guarantee anything.

I haven't heard outrageous claims by Reikilady or any of the other Reiki practicioners that I know. I haven't heard any pressure to get Reiki treatments, or derision of those who don't believe that Reiki works. I can't address what goes on anywhere else: what kind of money is involved or time committment or what have you, just what I have seen. If it works, then hooray for Reiki. If it doesn't work, what harm has been done that hasn't been done by someone getting prayed for? If someone claims that they "feel better", maybe they are deluding themselves, or maybe not, why should anyone else care?

What? "Cure For Pain" is a great CD!

That's right, I have had reiki treatments and I haven't given up my Morphine yet.

Scout: Since you're going to attend, could you send me an email? As we get closer I'm going to try to coordinate arrival times for those who are flying in so we make minimal trips to the airport...and maybe draft some of the drivers to help on shuttle duty too! oakspear@hotmail.com

There was a mini-MOG in Minnesota that used that line.We were at a class, eating together at lunch. After most of us were finished eating, some of the smokers noticed Rev. Wannabe lighting up, so they did as well. We were roundly reproved for smoking. No ashtrays provided means "no smoking", he said. To forestall the question of why HE was smoking, he told us that he was the man of God teaching the class and should be allowed certain priveleges.