Oakspear

I learned to organize and set up for an event! When setting up the room for my wedding, my two oldest sons and I were able to put our TWI set up skills to work. We did joke about stringing chairs and scrubbing the walls of otherwise clean rooms. <_<

Jerry & Dan: I guess you can be a Christian without believing that every word in the bible is true. I would imagine it frees up some time to live a Christ-like life if you're not spending so much time trying to make it all "fit like a hand in a glove".

Twisting words, how often did I see happen? Toward the end, almost on a daily basis. Part of the problem is that most people don't remember in detail the exact words that were said to them in a given situation, unless they make a deliberate effort to do so. What they remember is how they felt when something was said to them. How someone feels about what is said to them is influenced by preconceived notions about the person speaking. Often, after filtering what was said through imperfect memory, the brain edits in the words that prop up the image that fit the preconceived notion. the person then "remembers" something that wasn't said. For example: I was once questioning someone I lived with about a situation that I felt affected me. This person asked me why I wanted to know, to which I replied "I'm asking questions because I live here, and I want to know what's going on around me". In relaying this conversation to "leadership", she "remembered" me saying "This is my house and I'll ask the questions!" - having made up her mind ahead of time that I could be nothing but rude, nosy and overbearing. When someone was under "spiritual suspicion", frequently the minds of the "leaders" were made up, and what those under suspicion said and did was interpreted in light of this suspicion.

Not rude, just the truth. Oldies has consistatly taken the stand that things didn't happen if he didn't experience them. Is that flaming?

dmiller, you hit the nail right on the head. That often was our attitude about checking out Wierwille. Shame on us. Shame on him for encouraging it I hope we all learned

Does gist include not being able to translate? Yeah, that's what we learned in PFALHowever, when you're talking about conveying what is said in one language into another, the words "translation" and "interpretation" are virtually synonymous. The point is always to communicate the meaning of what is said. Translating the literal definition of each word (which is what Wierwille was referring to when he used the word "translation" in opposition to "interpretation") will often confuse those who hear or read a translation like that. Take into account that idioms and other figures of speech almost never make sense when literally translated. Jargon and other technical terms are also difficult. We have several people in my store (myself and our human resources coordinator included) who speak pretty fair conversational Spanish. However we're lost when trying to explain to employees things like insurance, profit sharing, OSHA regulations and anything that requires precise terms. I've been trying to convince our company to hire someone who is a certified translator to handle these tasks, rather than depend on the Guatamalan janitor to explain 401(k) benefits.

The fact that none of us is the same as our physical father does not, by itself, prove that, Jesus is not God, or that there is no trinity.

Yeah WW, you've summed it up nicely as usual. Unfortunately, OM isn't the only one to have the "I left at the exact right time" syndrome. -_-

I was under that impression as well, but then again, I've personally met only three people on whom it was attempted: Lifted Up - successful; the Nebraska Limb Secretary in 1981 - successful; a ninth corps guy from western Nebraska - unsuccessful. So my personal experience is that it worked on 2/3 of those it was tried on. Not a scientific poll, I know, but could it be that TWI made sure that we knew about the deprogramming failures, and ignored the successes?

Goey, you are correct

I can see where ignorance of certain events, and a desire to grasp at any shred that would allow one to think that "the ministry" was what one thought it was, would lead one to give Martindale the benefit of the doubt. Knowing what we know now, believing that Martindale was right in issuing that letter, ignores...well, pretty much everything. The "loyalty letter" makes perfect sense in light of a control freak who was convinced that he was God's representative (or dead set on maintaining that illusion) trying to maintain that control. Despite what I've said about Wierwille being no different than Martindale in this regard, Wierwille convinced us that it was a ministry of God, and that it was our ministry, and that he, above all wanted us to stand for God and not for him...I don't believe that was what Wierwille really stood for though.

It sounded good, but Wierwille always got to decide what "the Word" was, didn't he?

Raf: It was me who called the letter a "hypocritical load of crap" Rascal: What I've said on this thread is not that I think that Martindale was right, subsequent events and the testimony of psoters who were around at the time indicate clearly that he was wrong, but that it should have come as no surprise. I see it as a natural reaction for a hypocritical jerk with a big ego trained by another hypocritical jerk with a big ego. Wierwille got rid of the people who saw through his crap too. He was just smoother and kept it behind the scenes. Martindale was too stupid, didn't have Wierwille's charisma or skill at manipulation, and bought into the "I am the MOG" mythos that Wierwille built in him. Wierwille expected people to follow him too. How do you think it would have gone if the Way Corps told HIM that they didn't stand with a man, they stood with God? I imagine that his answer would have been that standing with HIM was standing with God...but he probably followed it up with a hearty "haw, haw, haw...I shore love you kids"...as he showed them the door.

Let me clarify the point of this thread, at least what I had in mind when I posted it. There are those of us here for whom PFAL was originally and remains to this day everything that it claimed to be. Though I am not a PFAL fan, I'm glad you have something to "hang your hat on" spiritually. But although no one is checking your I.D. at the door, this thread really isn't for you, but for those who came to the conclusion that PFAL was deficient in some way, after initially believing what was taught there. What methods or teaching styles, what inaccuracies or misrepresentations, or even misconceptions or misunderstandings, led you to "fall for" something that you now believe is error?

Not everyone has the same definition...just trying to get it clarified.

Because it's not really an answer, now is it? If he's not "standing on the Word", then the honest thing to do (which many did) was leave. Like I said before, loyalty to a man was not a new thing in TWI, Wierwille required it, although he was a bit more diplomatic about how he stated it. Would Wierwille have put up with Limb Leaders or other staff sending their abundant sharing to Peter Wade? Granted, future events, as well as later unveiling of past events, show this letter for the hypocritical load of crap that it is, but unless one thought that they could affect change from within, that is, force Martindale to change or resign, and bring back the "good ol' days", why stay within the organization that is run by this horse's foot?

Oldies: If it didn't happen to you or around you, then you are fortunate. When it did happen, sometimes it was tolerated, sometimes it was not. But for a program where assignments were touted as being "by revelation", there sure were a lot of problems. And by the way, even consensual sex was contrary to the rules of the program. You're not saying that WOW's should have been enticing people to PFAL via sex, are you? I'm not saying that people didn't grow and mature, or that (within the context of TWI's version of what was godly) godly things didn't happen, or that God's Word didn't move on the WOW field, but that no training or oversight caused this to happen.

Well then, to quote VP Wierwille's mischaracterization of atheism: "You believed that you didn't believe, therefore you believed" :P

What happened if Henry Baloko physically assaulted Maggie Muggins? Or Snowball Pete was doing coke? Or Suzi Q was banging the guys she was "witnessing" to at the bar? Or Johnny Jump Up Way Corps family Coordinator was making sexual advances to the women in the WOW group? Or was refusing to get a job? That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Not mere personality conflicts.

Or lazy thieves

Can we define "saved'? Or "Salvation"?

Evan has put more time & thinking into this than I, but if this is the "formula", why do we never see it used anywhere in Acts?

I've never been able to understand why anyone was surprised at this letter. Wierwille never allowed the degree of dissension in the ranks that Martindale was dealing with. TWI was never run in any way other than despotic, one-man, top-down, no-argument, quasi-dictatorship. Whatever you think of the godliness of the doctrine, TWI was never a democracy, and never pretended to be. It is unrealistic to have expected that Wierwille's spiritual heir would behave in any other way than how he did

I remember them as early as 1997 or '98

No former beliefs? How did you manage that?