Oakspear

And anyone who did check whatever stupid thing he was told, and confronted "leadership" about it, was shown the door pretty quickly. I'm aghast that Townsend didn't know Wierwille was promoting it

With respect, I believe this distinction is one that any follower of religion would make between his own religion and the religion of others.

Because they claimed that the assignments were all by revelation...

What exactly were the requirements for entering the Corps? From an outside vantage point, it looked somewhat haphazard, some folks seemed to "have what it took", others semed to just have the money.

Sounds like kissing up to the celebrity to me <_<

"Discussion" generally involves a bit more than stating that what you believe is truth and everyone who disagrees is an idiot. If you want to get involved in the Doctrinal discussions Allan, do so, but back up what you're saying. The major PFAL supporter on this board believes that PFAL virtually replaces the bible, it would be refreshing to hear the pro-PFAL position discussed rationally. Part of the challenge of having doctrinal discussions is that not everyone starts from the same premise. For instance, two people here may start from the premise that "the bible, as originally written, is god-breathed, and therefore without error" Those two hypothetical people may still disagree on what parts are literal, and what parts are figurative. They may disagree on what language the bible was originally written in, or whose definitions of Greek words they will accept. All of these disagreements can result in different conclusions, even if the basic premise of an inerrant bible is accepted.

...and they still sell and promote The Rise & Expansion of the Christian Church in the First Century by Martindale, which discusses and promotes numerical expansion.

One could be trained as a leader without being shackled to an organization's whims. I can imagine getting the four years of training, and making myself available to be a twig leader, or simply "blessing" my fellowship with my knowledge and experience. It became indentured servitude.

Okay then...since there are a few measly Wierwilles still "standing", is the Word living? :blink: This one always got me. He had respect for his family and his background, but all of us were to treat our own families and backgrounds as if they were of no importance. So Wierwille didn't think the guy had humility, so he wouldn't treat him with the respect a federal judge might expect, but he was willing to use the man to prop up his little cult? What went on here? Why did Tony Collins get a WOW pin?

Yes, you did. I will now have to tear down the "Galen" shrine that I maintain in my garage. :wub: Naw, actually I just misunderstood your background. I've got no problem with "mail-order" or "internet" ordinations, as long as the holder does not misrepresent himself. To some folks, having a representative of this or that denomination perform a ceremony is very important. To others, it's not as important as the committment to each other, and they just want to observe the legalities.

While there were always rumors of deprogramming attempts on Way people, I only knew of two while I was in, and one that I met here at GS. I maybe heard of two or three others mentioned by name during the time I was "in". One was featured prominantly in a Way magazine article, another was the subject of Wierwille's "By The Way" paid editorials. Looking back, TWI would have made a big deal of every unsuccessful deprogramming. So either there wasn't that many attempts, or most of the attempts succeeded in the deprogramees getting out of TWI. Anyway, that's the way it looks to me -_-

Does evil exist? Depends on how you want to define "evil", I guess. Is it just the absence of "good", or is it a force in and of itself? Most of what I see that could be interpreted as evil, is mostly selfishness in the extreme. Somebody putting their own needs, wants, and ambitions first, with little or no regard for others.

Galen: Am I understanding you correctly? You sought and received a mail order ordination (no disresepect intended) while in TWI because you thought that there was no TWI leadership nearby to perform weddings, later finding out that someone was available, just unwilling? For some reason I thought that you were ordained in a regular church before getting involved in TWI

What I'm seeing here is how much "doctor" <_< jerked people around: you're in the Corps, you're out of the Corps, aaw, you can have a second chance... ...and how petty he could be, even when peolple were thinking about him: "keep your hands off my stuff" :blink: ...and here's a telling comment: This was supposed to be a Biblical Research Ministry! Why was he teaching things that he didn't document in "The Word"? This was one of the major reasons why "research" in TWI turned into a rubber stamp of what Wierwille taught. Wierwille was pulling stuff out of his foot, enshrining it in books and video; who was going to tell the MOG that he was wrong? "Research" became the fine art of finding obscure scriptures, or massaging Greek definitions to back up Wierwille's claims.

What went on, I wonder, in Loy's tiny, little brain between November 1986, when he wrote that apology letter that dmiller quoted, and the "loyalty demand" letter that is the main topic of discussion? Was the first letter an attempt to jolly us along until it all blew over? The loyalty demand then being his frustration at not being to get away with his false humility? Or did he have a moment of true sorrow and repentence at his actions, only to go back to his old ways? We'll probably never know, but the years from 1986 - 1989 were the best chance for The Way to get beyond the pseudo-theocratic dictatorship that was TWI under Wierwille. Many leaders were willing to participate in the rebuilding of TWI, but Martindale, aided and abetted by his supporters, re-established the one man rule.

Okay, someone sent me an address...he'll be in the mail in a few days

I've got him. I never received an address to send him to.

The Doctrinal Forum goes through phases. Since it's tucked away down here in the sub-basement of GS, not everybody takes the time to come down here. For a long time it was more of an "intellectual" forum, where the finer (okay, and blunter) points of theology were hashed out. Not that everybody got along, but there was more of a tendency to document one's opinions. Recurring battles between certain posters over predestination or atheism were stimulating. Then for a time the Forum seemed to be dominated by huge "Mike" threads, and other threads with titles like: "Let's talk About Flying Whales" and the level of discussion sank to "I just know that angels fixed my flat tire" - :o We've got a couple of good topics going now...let's keep the level of discourse scholarly :P

The author of the article that Goey posted is not saying that someone cannot be referred to as a pastor, or a minister, he is not denying difference in function. He is questioning the use of these functions as titles of respect or differentiation. You can say (according to the article) Frank is the pastor of the church, but not refer to Frank as Pastor Frank, or Reverend Frank.

I think it was more like a pathetic attempt to exercise authority that he thought that he had, but obviously didn't. Wierwille never needed to have the loyalty of us mind numbed waybots put into writing. He hid his shortcomings from the vast majority of us quite well. What's scary is that Martindale could have had all of that too, if he had been a better con artist. What's sad (for Martindale, not for us) is that despite his whining about not getting the "benefit of the doubt", most people did give him the benefit of the doubt after his elevation to MOGdom. Many people thought others, such as Cummins, Lynn, Dubofsky, were better qualified to take Wierwille's place, but were willing to accept Martindale as Wierwille's annointed successor. Martindale blew all of that. He just didn't realize that authority cannot simply be conferred. For it to be effective, authority must be coupled with respect; it must be earned. He looked at the respect, and yes, loyalty, that Wierwille received, and assumed that it was his divine-right due, without making the slightest atempt to earn it.

"....and he was dead wrong wasn`t he?" Yup, he was. But in the context of what he and all the rest of us were taught by Wierwille, it was consistant. "You are still attempting to imply that lcm was a reasonable man, making a reasonable demand from people whom owed him NOTHING!" No, you are incorrect. I think that subsequent events indicate quite strongly that Martindale was, if not a raving lunatic, then a manipulative, hypocritical, abusing S.O.B., who squandered what he inherited from his "Father in the Word", Wierwille. VP at least had the ability to make us believe that we were getting blessed, whether we were or not. "We were not employees, we were not leaders, we were simple believers whom had selflessly served twi exclusively for decades with no recompense." Okay, but as I've been saying, TWI NEVER was a place where it was "available" to stand against the MOG. "As long as he acted on behalf of God and in the best interest of the people placed in his care than he would have been worthey of our respect and loyalty......but he never WAS that." Whoa! I thought that we were supposed to stand with and give our loyalty to God, not man? Even if Martindale was Christ-on-a-stick, according to the logic I've seen posted here, he would still not have had the right to ask for, nor expect, loyalty. "He was a seriously unstable individual who went ballistic when he didn`t recieve the unquestioning obedience he viewed was his due..........and LIKE an over emotional two year old, he threw a temper tantrum. In any other scenario he would have been viewed as a highly dangerous mentally ill individual, but because he was considered a mog....few realised this." Yup, and it got worse At no point on this thread have I suggested that Martindale was a godly man, that he was worthy of respect or loyalty, or that folks who left were wrong to do so. But I don't believe that suggesting that Martindale thought or said that "standing on the Word" was crap helps to make the case for "the other side of the story". Reasonable people can disagree on some of the details. Raf summarizes things nicely, IMHO

Hey, there are real smart guys and gals on both sides (all sides?) of the disagreement here at GS and in Christianity in general. If it's so clear, how come we have so many different opinions?

Yup...In use the term successful advisedly...I mean that the deprogrammers succeeded in getting the person outExcuse me, Lifted, if I was presumptuous in the use of your handle.

Just for the record, I'm a ULC church "reverend" as well :ph34r: If someone is getting married, and wants it blessed by their favorite teacher, or grandfather or a South Florida reporter B), why should the state or anyone else care? But since most states require an "ordination" for a person to perform a marriage, the ULC provides the service or ordaining people for free. The "ordination" doesn't confer any degree of spirituality on the person, just legality. By the way, I didn't buy any of their certificates, collars, or I.D. cards. :lol:

As far as I know, Martindale's parents and siblings all were involved in TWI at least up to the early to mid-nineties. Martindale always spoke well of his father, who, as far as I know, is still alive. He told anecdotes about his father's great ability as a coach which he worked intyo his athletes of the spirit teachings. I met the man at a Word in Business or Advanced Class Special in Dallas one year and hung out with him on a smoke break. Seemed like a down-to-earth, level-headed guy