Oakspear

Who do you think that the thought police are/were...when were they fired?As far as I know, the top leadership of TWI at "Headquarters" has remained the same. There were two or threee region coordinators who bolted, and one high profile former region coordinator couple, but everyone else is still in place.

In re-reading your post, themex, I see that you might have meant ordained with the title "President". Regardless, I see nowhere in the bible where someone ever has a position for life if they walk away from godly practice in their life. Interestingly, unlike previous leaders who left TWI, Martindale's book is still available in the bookstore, and his teachings, including WayAP, are still a fundamental part of TWI doctrine. So maybe you have a point.

What specifically are you talking about here? What kind of power are you referring to? And what power did you see in TWI that outshone the power of "the dark side"?

Post by Thin Lizzy reformatted for easier reading (for me anyway) - you might want to consider breaking it up into paragraphs on future loooong posts Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life. It's fine for everybody who wants to walk away and call it over but I can't do it because I remember the agony of the spirit realm. I was tortured by the spirits in my mind and then suddenly, I was 18 and made a bet with God. For years, I had went to many churches, looked up other organizations, talked to many, many folks about The Bible and I could find no power. I was in seances and there was power. I operated devil spirits and black magic and there was power. I did drugs and dealt drugs and there was power but my heart longed to know God, to be good. I knew there was spiritual power available on "the dark side" but nothing seemed to evident on the side of God. Fed up, I told God that if He didn't show me His Will and His Word, I was going to kill myself because I was DONE with this world. Then I got witnessed to and once they kicked out the devil spirits and I could read again (lost the ability to understand or read english during the witnessing encounter, which was a big deal since it was/is my primary language), I got born again. I spoke in tongues 3 months later. I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits. I know what the world has to offer without the Word of God and I know there are others who are in the same situation. This ministry saved my life. There are others who need it. I want it to live for those people too. Okay, so maybe it almost ruined my life too but I found the balance and the desire of my heart in my spouse. God IS good always. I just remember that. God is good ALWAYS. Thanks for the yummy turkey cookies! Super duper gobbling good! I'll have another round of coffee, if you please. Oh before I go - Thanks for all the welcoming by the way! I really appreciate it. I’m not retarded to what the ministry was, became, and now is. I also was Marked & Avoided when I left the W.C. in the 90's. Boy, was that pretty horrible! I took the AC 4X and each time it was exhilarating and exhausting. Of course, that was at the Indiana Campus where people stayed on campus the whole class and didn't have to shuffle between the Motels/Hotels which must be pretty awful. I talked to a friend who recently attended (last year) and the schedule was very hectic. Getting committed even one step at a time takes a LOT of time and a LOT of money but I've always believed that people make the time and find the money for what interests them so I guess I always justified to myself that that's what it was for me. I came back after nearly a decade of absence just a few years ago and found some of the changes disturbing. The Ministry was a LOT like New Orleans after the hurricane, leveled and hurting. Now many Way people would say that spiritually New Orleans brought it on themselves, just like Sodom & Gomorrah and if that is the case, then it could be reasoned that The Way Ministry had the same thing happen to them and were (in that same sense)spiritually deserving of it. Although we are not supposed to be joyful when bad things happen, at what point can we justify the relief and the true THANK GOD! feeling that we had when the spiritual hurricane leveled The Way ministry. I feel they had it coming and I hope the people who hurt me spent just as much time in tears and in frustration as I did. Now that it’s mostly done and justice has been served, I can move on. I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail. However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular. The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can. I think it is changing because it HAS TO change. When the government can come in and tell you that you’re breaking the LAW, at what point do the leaders figure out that there is more corruption than what meets the eye. Leadership is changing and many have changed. The current Way Corps is different. They are being trained differently. The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves. They are not ½ human, ½ WAYFER cyborg but rather all-heart, all-go people, like I remember them being. People with heart AND confidence – what a combination. Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”. When LCM said in 1992 that he didn’t get involved in people’s personal lives or their finances because people have to make the Word their own and they answer to God in their heart of hearts, he was right. If they had stayed on that track, all would have been well but alas, the deception was already weaving and the illusion clarifying and we all know what happened after that. Nevertheless, the end of my Saga is that I believe God works in us as we believe HIS Word and as we renew our minds and put off the old man nature. I am IN the ministry because I can hear the voice of God when I draw closer to Him and to His Word and the ministry helps me with that. I give and I take; they give and they take and as long as it stays within the boundaries of what I find acceptable, I will stay but experience has taught me to be warned and to be wary. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth. Keep your stick on the ice! Happy Thanksgiving!

This isn't a Christmas movie, but it's got the same characters, but different actors, as "A Christmas Story": Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss. The kids, mom and "the old man" are planning a vacation. Ralphie gets a summer job, the dog (fuzzhead) goes missing, it's hilarious. Jerry O'Connel is Ralphie, James Sikking is "the old man". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098023/

So what makes someone a MOGFODAT?

Is the concept of "THE Man of God for our time" a biblical one? Regardless of whether Wierwille or Martindale fit the bill, does the bible support the concept? Sticking with the new testament, which Wierwille claimed was "written to us", I'm just not seeing it. During the gospel period, when Jesus was still walking the earth, he was obviously the top dog. What happened after he ascended doesn't read like anyone was annointed as pope, or MOG, or President. Peter seems to be the spokesman, maybe even a "first among equals", but after some years, he takes to the road, raising people from the dead, witnessing to the gentiles and living with the tanner in Joppa or some such town. Paul takes a prominant position, but appears to defer to James in Jerusalem. Seems to be more of an administration by committee, or consensus, than an heirarchal rule by one man at the top of a "Way Tree" or a pyramid. So, where does the MOG idea come from? From all indications, the Old Testament. Moses sets up a system whereby he can "judge the people" without having to deal with thousands personally. Moses was without question a ruling MOG. It was also a special situation, the Hebrews having escaped Egypt, but not having taken over "The Promised Land". Once in Canaan, there wasn't a unified government until Saul's kingdom. How does this apply to now? It doesn't. But I'll entertain opposing points of view

Please...supply...a...chapter & verse...reference...from THE BIBLE...to back up...your assertion...that...there is...a MOGFODAT.

Martindale was NOT ordained with the title: "The Man of God of our Day an Time". Whether RFR obeys him is another story.

You know about the lies and cover up, yet you still believed Martindale to be the MOGFODAT?

Nope. 1st time at Rome City for Wierwille's class, 2nd time also at Rome City for Martindale's version one, and Sioux Falls, SD for Martindale's version two.

Do you mean "Don't be an Okie"?

This conversation about the Advanced Class got me thinking about how we as wayfers would often be thoroughly and obnoxiously convinced about things we did not understand. When I took the AC in 1978 there was a handout called "the numerics of the manifestations", where Wierwille ties in the numerical order of each manifestation as it's listed with the significance of each number as taught by Bullinger in Number in Scripture. When Martindale taught his second version of the AC (the first was just a reteaching of Wierwille's PFAL Advanced Class, the 2nd was officially The Advanced Class on the Way of Abundance and Power) he taught the manifestations in the order that they are listed in Corinthians, with the exception of the so-called worship manifestations. Before the class was released Martindale mentioned that for years he didn't understand the whole concept of "the numerics of the manifestations", but taught it anyway! How many things did we all spout off like "there are no starts in the north" from Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed to the whole concept of "God can only give what he is: spirit"?

I would guess that $500 included lodging. I remember $250 as the class fee through the 90's, with varying extras depending on whether you were housed on or off TWI grounds

Even if your figure of 12,000 is correct, it would hardly be overflowing, when you consider that at its peak the ROA hosted over 20,000 people.

I think you're missing the point. Blaming the devil when your habits are unhealthy and destructive is foolish. While bad things sometimes happen regardless, deliberately abusing our bodies can be avoided. VP preached often about how those who got sick were "not believeing", and said that cancer was a devil spirit, yet he died from cancer. Ironic, wouldn't you say?

"Accuracy" outweighed compassion, or we believed that they were the same. That, it and of itself, says a lot.

They came up with some new ones this year; I've got "Sacrifice" hanging outside my office door - it's interesting to note who gets the Aztec human sacrifice reference and who doesn't. This one is kinda spooky.... http://www.despair.com/demotivators/madness.html

But not surprising. Serial liars can be convincing, but rarely take the time to make sure all their stories line up

It depnds on whether I have to get up the next morning One of our local hot spots has been doing early shows once a week, usually Wednesdays, 6 - 9pm. Susie & I saw Chris Duarte at one of those a few months back. These days, most of the music that I take in is local bands, but Lincoln has quite a few good bands, especially blues.

http://www.despair.com/sacrifice1.html

1. None of the proponents of water baptism are saying that it is necessary for salvation. Some are saying that it is necessary in order to obey God's Word. Opinions vary. 2. Just because a verse does not specifically mention water, does not necessarily mean that water wasn't involved. Baptism can literally mean immersion in water, or it can be used figuratively. Context can tell us which. 3. Wierwille's take on a verse or concept sometimes was the correct one, sometimes not. His teaching often only "fit" if you ignored parts of the bible. Some on this thread are attepting to make it "fit" by considering topics that Wierwille didn't. 4. There are many apparent contradictions (or real ones, depending on your view) that Wierwille never touched. It is not "tail-chasing" to try to reconcile these. Despite a yearning for "the simplicity of the Word", its anything but simple.

Noooooo....don't make me read it :o :unsure: :wacko: :blink:

"Putting it together so it fit" could reasonably be described as telling his students: "Dr. Smith taught about ABC, but I think he was off on C; Bishop Jones taught XYZ, but his conclusions on Y do not fit 'the Word'; now Rev. Brown taught CY so well that it brought tears to your eyes, but he was too much influenced by WordWolf on AB & XZ to be of much value. Therefore by taking these specific parts of what Dr. Smith, Bishop Jones and Rev. Brown taught, we can see the truth of da Word" What Wierwille did was closer to this: "Open your bibles, look at such and such a verse. Look at all these other verses scattered around the bible. Listen to my rambling analogies. See! We can obviously conclude ABCXYZ! Ya know keeds, I learned a lot from Dr. Smith, he really taught the experience of ABC, but he just couldn't put it together from the Word (like I could) and Bishop Jones, I ran into him in Oklahoma in a snowstorm once, but women always lie. He taught me a little bit about how to X, but I documented it fron the Word. Rev. Brown did his translation of the Polish bible at my house. Name dropping and casually mentioning people who influenced you and who you say you learned from is a far cry from crediting those from whom he got fully formed, fully researched, and fully thought through and published ideas.

So...many...words :o