Oakspear

I define "apostle" as 'one who sits at a keyboard commenting on his cult days'....

Wierwille's quote above is a wonderful testimony to the way a body ordinarily self heals, indeed is designed to do such. But I fail to see how that description leads to the conclusion that sickness is death in part. More like sickness, unless it results in death, is an opportunity for life to assert itself.

I don't recall the "gift ministry" ever being specified for anyone being ordained

I agree that there is truth, I disagree that there is a lot. I disagree that Wierwille's classes are the places to be searching for the truth. Good luck on the gleaning

Yup, that's it.The Yardbirds didn't write it, but did the first popular version. I first heard it done by Aerosmith

Seems obvious, if you subscribe to a literal interpreation of the bible, I can imagine allegorical interpreations that would mean no literal devil.

The "other" books don't present so much of a problem if one abandons the position that the bible as we now have it is a translation of documents that were transmitted directly from God to man. I'm not talking about abandoning Christianity, or any specific belief, by the way, other than the belief that the bible is 'god-breathed', that it is inerrant, and that it fits 'like a hand in a glove'. It certainly is possible to view each of the various books within the bible as the personal experience of the individual writer, or a treatise clarifying or expounding on well-known doctrines, or even as a pamphlet arguing against views that the writer disagreed with. None of these positions negate the central message of Jesus. The "other" writings can be viewed in a number of ways: one is to regard them as a heretical, the product of a mistaken, or in an extreme view, devil-inspired. Another way is to regard them as simply the surviving documents of the losing side. Even within the second choice, there are different possibilities: did the losing side lose because they were wrong, or because the other side had better backing, or bigger numbers? ...and Belle, being down here in 'the basement', helps keep out the riff-raff

Similar to the discussion of sucession by revelation being implied, Wierwille's apostleship was also implied. In PFAL, his unique definition of "apostle" was obviously being applied to him: he claimed that he was teaching 'The Word' like it had not been taught since the first century, and an apostle brought 'new light' to his generation, and as Wierwille added it may be old light, but it's new light to those hearing it.

"...she was a hipster, a real gone dame..."

many here would agree with you...I partially agree with you Wierwille's words were revered as if they proceeded from the mouth of God. It is entirely appropriare that his words be put under a microscope.

Me too

I repeat my question: What specifically are you talking about here? What kind of power are you referring to? And what power did you see in TWI that outshone the power of "the dark side"?...and you have not said who you thought the "thought police" were/are, and why you think that they were fired. Many here, including myself, were targets of such, not that long ago.

I got involved in early 1978, so I fall outside the time frame set here, but my twig was mostly made up of folks who had been involved from the early seventies, some of whom had been out WOW and returned. Already, some of the "old-timers" were b*tching about how things had changed, gone downhill, and how regimented Way life had become. Steve Heefner was still talked about with respect and almost awe by some.

The number needed to run a class changed quickly. After being run for Way Corps, Corps Alumni and then PFAL grads, new WayAP classes needed 10 new people. It soon changed to three, with an I-don't-remember number of grads. I can only remember two classes run for new people in my area: one for three PFAL grads who had started coming back to twigs after the initial offering of WayAP to grads, the wife of one of those grads, and my son's girlfriend. The second included an student from Africa who was a grad of the French version of PFAL, the girlfriend of a grad, and three children of WayAP grads. An aside from the trivia section of my long-term memory: people had started calling it the "wap" class, Martindale decreed that if you were going to abbreviate, you had to call it "The Way Class". Personally, I always abbreviated it as WayAP.

Chuck E's in Love Ricky Lee Jones?

Of course he would have, Geer just made it easy for him, enabled Martindale to have a man to pin things on, rather than manufacturing a devil spirit out of thin air.

The whole situation also gave Martindale a focus once he decided to reassert control. Geer was the devil incarnate to many wayfers in the 90's, the cause of all the "rebellion" in way-dom. The existance of Geer allowed Martindale to publically ignore any real issues that people had with his "leadership" and put the spotlight on Geer's so-called devil spirits.

Maybe you ought to consider it NOW!

I emphasized "THE" since I believe that biblically there is room for multiple generic "men of God" if you accept the definition as "someone who speaks for God". 2 Timothy 3:17 mentions "man of God", so there must be such an animal, just not as it evolved in TWI.

Who do you think that the thought police are/were...when were they fired?As far as I know, the top leadership of TWI at "Headquarters" has remained the same. There were two or threee region coordinators who bolted, and one high profile former region coordinator couple, but everyone else is still in place.

In re-reading your post, themex, I see that you might have meant ordained with the title "President". Regardless, I see nowhere in the bible where someone ever has a position for life if they walk away from godly practice in their life. Interestingly, unlike previous leaders who left TWI, Martindale's book is still available in the bookstore, and his teachings, including WayAP, are still a fundamental part of TWI doctrine. So maybe you have a point.

What specifically are you talking about here? What kind of power are you referring to? And what power did you see in TWI that outshone the power of "the dark side"?

Post by Thin Lizzy reformatted for easier reading (for me anyway) - you might want to consider breaking it up into paragraphs on future loooong posts Yes, I am fighting to save the ministry because it saved my life. It's fine for everybody who wants to walk away and call it over but I can't do it because I remember the agony of the spirit realm. I was tortured by the spirits in my mind and then suddenly, I was 18 and made a bet with God. For years, I had went to many churches, looked up other organizations, talked to many, many folks about The Bible and I could find no power. I was in seances and there was power. I operated devil spirits and black magic and there was power. I did drugs and dealt drugs and there was power but my heart longed to know God, to be good. I knew there was spiritual power available on "the dark side" but nothing seemed to evident on the side of God. Fed up, I told God that if He didn't show me His Will and His Word, I was going to kill myself because I was DONE with this world. Then I got witnessed to and once they kicked out the devil spirits and I could read again (lost the ability to understand or read english during the witnessing encounter, which was a big deal since it was/is my primary language), I got born again. I spoke in tongues 3 months later. I had lived with pain for a couple years (from a severe injury) and I took PFAL and got miraculous healing from it during the class. I have seen the lame walk. I have been at death's door. I have been physically mamed by spirits. I know what the world has to offer without the Word of God and I know there are others who are in the same situation. This ministry saved my life. There are others who need it. I want it to live for those people too. Okay, so maybe it almost ruined my life too but I found the balance and the desire of my heart in my spouse. God IS good always. I just remember that. God is good ALWAYS. Thanks for the yummy turkey cookies! Super duper gobbling good! I'll have another round of coffee, if you please. Oh before I go - Thanks for all the welcoming by the way! I really appreciate it. I’m not retarded to what the ministry was, became, and now is. I also was Marked & Avoided when I left the W.C. in the 90's. Boy, was that pretty horrible! I took the AC 4X and each time it was exhilarating and exhausting. Of course, that was at the Indiana Campus where people stayed on campus the whole class and didn't have to shuffle between the Motels/Hotels which must be pretty awful. I talked to a friend who recently attended (last year) and the schedule was very hectic. Getting committed even one step at a time takes a LOT of time and a LOT of money but I've always believed that people make the time and find the money for what interests them so I guess I always justified to myself that that's what it was for me. I came back after nearly a decade of absence just a few years ago and found some of the changes disturbing. The Ministry was a LOT like New Orleans after the hurricane, leveled and hurting. Now many Way people would say that spiritually New Orleans brought it on themselves, just like Sodom & Gomorrah and if that is the case, then it could be reasoned that The Way Ministry had the same thing happen to them and were (in that same sense)spiritually deserving of it. Although we are not supposed to be joyful when bad things happen, at what point can we justify the relief and the true THANK GOD! feeling that we had when the spiritual hurricane leveled The Way ministry. I feel they had it coming and I hope the people who hurt me spent just as much time in tears and in frustration as I did. Now that it’s mostly done and justice has been served, I can move on. I can forgive the emotional rapists because justice was served. Now don't get me wrong, I am NOT against the ministry, nor do I want it to fall or fail. However, the cancer of pride, anger and lust for money and power corrupted many people and that was the welcome wagon to the d.s. realm to rack & ruin the ministry and what I mean by rack & ruin is not just the ministry in it's corporate HQ in Ohio but in it's members in particular. The people like me (and most of you) who were victims of the abuse. It’s terrible, just terrible what has happened but can a phoenix rise from the ashes? I believe it can. I think it is changing because it HAS TO change. When the government can come in and tell you that you’re breaking the LAW, at what point do the leaders figure out that there is more corruption than what meets the eye. Leadership is changing and many have changed. The current Way Corps is different. They are being trained differently. The thought police have been fired and in their absence, the WC is being trained to question and think for themselves. They are not ½ human, ½ WAYFER cyborg but rather all-heart, all-go people, like I remember them being. People with heart AND confidence – what a combination. Have we really come full circle back to “GOD WORKS IN YOU”, instead of “God is working in you only if I (being a leader) recognize God working in you and can fully agree that yes, it is God working in you and it’s not some spiritual mix-up”. When LCM said in 1992 that he didn’t get involved in people’s personal lives or their finances because people have to make the Word their own and they answer to God in their heart of hearts, he was right. If they had stayed on that track, all would have been well but alas, the deception was already weaving and the illusion clarifying and we all know what happened after that. Nevertheless, the end of my Saga is that I believe God works in us as we believe HIS Word and as we renew our minds and put off the old man nature. I am IN the ministry because I can hear the voice of God when I draw closer to Him and to His Word and the ministry helps me with that. I give and I take; they give and they take and as long as it stays within the boundaries of what I find acceptable, I will stay but experience has taught me to be warned and to be wary. Sincerity is no guarantee for truth. Keep your stick on the ice! Happy Thanksgiving!

This isn't a Christmas movie, but it's got the same characters, but different actors, as "A Christmas Story": Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss. The kids, mom and "the old man" are planning a vacation. Ralphie gets a summer job, the dog (fuzzhead) goes missing, it's hilarious. Jerry O'Connel is Ralphie, James Sikking is "the old man". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098023/

So what makes someone a MOGFODAT?