Oakspear

dmiller: Have two beers, I think you sprained something writing that post. I hate to be nitpicky (okay, I like being nitpicky) but although Bullinger says that nachash means "shining one", nachash is a normal Hebrew word for serpent aka snake. Blueletterbible.com says that nachash means serpent, but that it derives from the word "to hiss". But even assuming that Bullinger is correct, the root of a word only gives an indication of the meaning of a word, and is not always a reliable guide to the actual meaning. Words change, and as they branch off from the root take on shades of meaning and connotations that are not in the root. Bullinger (and Wierwille) often referred to a word's root to plum (or is it plumb?) meanings that weren't necessarily there. Anyway, we know it's not a literal snake, mainly because it's talking, not because it's the word nachash. There are literal references to snakes that use the same word. D*mn, now I need a beer, and it only 2;30AM.

TWI publically taught that the priorities were:1. God 2. Spouse (if you had one) 3. Children (if you had them) 4. The work of the ministry (as distinct from God) 5. Secular Job, school, etc But, as most of us know, the practical application was much different. You were doing God's will by running this class; you were taking care of your spouse by driving to Ohio and sitting through the advanced class; it was best for your children to be at such-and-such an event. During my time in TWI, especially the last five years, the pressure to do everything TWI was constant.

...and you should be proud! My own son is in the military...thankfully far away from Iraq.

The whole story about the devil, the incarnation of evil, tempting man and woman to disobey God and therefore experience evil themselves still leaves man with the choice of succumbing to evil or not. Adam and Eve made the wrong choice while still in the state that God had created them in, before being supposedly tainted by Lucifer, and before becoming like him. Jesus Christ came in order to "save" man from his sinful state and restore him back to...what? The state in which they succumbed to "evil" in the first place! Humans, including those alleged first humans, have within them the ability to do good, or to do evil. They have the ability to choose one or the other, or any one of the shades of grey in between. They can also be taught, or persuaded to do good rather than evil.

Joking or no, dmiller, your post that I responded to indicates that you believe that an allegorical interpretation is not possible, not that you don't agree with it. Yes, I got it that you were using humor to make your point. :P Actually, arguing from the point of view that the bible is true, the position that the devil is a literal being can be supported more easily than a figurative devil can...in my opinion. It really has nothing to do with an agnostic view. There are Christians who do not believe that the bible is talking about a literal adversary when it talks about the devil. A typcal agnostic wouldn't even get to the existance of the devil, being so busy wondering about the existance of God. I'd agree with that. One could hardly believe that God is a figurative representation of "good" while believeing in a literal devil. Possible, i guess, just not likely. With respect, I don't really think you do see where I am coming from. I put forth the idea of a figurative devil as a possibilty, in response to this: ...not as a statement of my own personal belief. I personally do not believe that there is a devil, literal or figurative. I thought that the statement "my bible says he does" did not take into account differing Christian beliefs about the devil and evil. Again, with respect, I'm not sure that you really know what I believe. It is certainly a valid biblical position that there is both a real God and a real devil. It does not necessarily follow that a "real" God means that there is a "real" devil. I think I clearly labelled my remark about a "talking snake" as sarcasm <_<

Nice smiley dmiller. So (he asks with sarcasm creeping into his voice, or at least his font) you believe that the bible is 100% literal? No figures of speech? That really was a talking snake in Genesis?

I define "apostle" as 'one who sits at a keyboard commenting on his cult days'....

Wierwille's quote above is a wonderful testimony to the way a body ordinarily self heals, indeed is designed to do such. But I fail to see how that description leads to the conclusion that sickness is death in part. More like sickness, unless it results in death, is an opportunity for life to assert itself.

I don't recall the "gift ministry" ever being specified for anyone being ordained

I agree that there is truth, I disagree that there is a lot. I disagree that Wierwille's classes are the places to be searching for the truth. Good luck on the gleaning

Yup, that's it.The Yardbirds didn't write it, but did the first popular version. I first heard it done by Aerosmith

Seems obvious, if you subscribe to a literal interpreation of the bible, I can imagine allegorical interpreations that would mean no literal devil.

The "other" books don't present so much of a problem if one abandons the position that the bible as we now have it is a translation of documents that were transmitted directly from God to man. I'm not talking about abandoning Christianity, or any specific belief, by the way, other than the belief that the bible is 'god-breathed', that it is inerrant, and that it fits 'like a hand in a glove'. It certainly is possible to view each of the various books within the bible as the personal experience of the individual writer, or a treatise clarifying or expounding on well-known doctrines, or even as a pamphlet arguing against views that the writer disagreed with. None of these positions negate the central message of Jesus. The "other" writings can be viewed in a number of ways: one is to regard them as a heretical, the product of a mistaken, or in an extreme view, devil-inspired. Another way is to regard them as simply the surviving documents of the losing side. Even within the second choice, there are different possibilities: did the losing side lose because they were wrong, or because the other side had better backing, or bigger numbers? ...and Belle, being down here in 'the basement', helps keep out the riff-raff

Similar to the discussion of sucession by revelation being implied, Wierwille's apostleship was also implied. In PFAL, his unique definition of "apostle" was obviously being applied to him: he claimed that he was teaching 'The Word' like it had not been taught since the first century, and an apostle brought 'new light' to his generation, and as Wierwille added it may be old light, but it's new light to those hearing it.

"...she was a hipster, a real gone dame..."

many here would agree with you...I partially agree with you Wierwille's words were revered as if they proceeded from the mouth of God. It is entirely appropriare that his words be put under a microscope.

Me too

I repeat my question: What specifically are you talking about here? What kind of power are you referring to? And what power did you see in TWI that outshone the power of "the dark side"?...and you have not said who you thought the "thought police" were/are, and why you think that they were fired. Many here, including myself, were targets of such, not that long ago.

I got involved in early 1978, so I fall outside the time frame set here, but my twig was mostly made up of folks who had been involved from the early seventies, some of whom had been out WOW and returned. Already, some of the "old-timers" were b*tching about how things had changed, gone downhill, and how regimented Way life had become. Steve Heefner was still talked about with respect and almost awe by some.

The number needed to run a class changed quickly. After being run for Way Corps, Corps Alumni and then PFAL grads, new WayAP classes needed 10 new people. It soon changed to three, with an I-don't-remember number of grads. I can only remember two classes run for new people in my area: one for three PFAL grads who had started coming back to twigs after the initial offering of WayAP to grads, the wife of one of those grads, and my son's girlfriend. The second included an student from Africa who was a grad of the French version of PFAL, the girlfriend of a grad, and three children of WayAP grads. An aside from the trivia section of my long-term memory: people had started calling it the "wap" class, Martindale decreed that if you were going to abbreviate, you had to call it "The Way Class". Personally, I always abbreviated it as WayAP.

Chuck E's in Love Ricky Lee Jones?

Of course he would have, Geer just made it easy for him, enabled Martindale to have a man to pin things on, rather than manufacturing a devil spirit out of thin air.

The whole situation also gave Martindale a focus once he decided to reassert control. Geer was the devil incarnate to many wayfers in the 90's, the cause of all the "rebellion" in way-dom. The existance of Geer allowed Martindale to publically ignore any real issues that people had with his "leadership" and put the spotlight on Geer's so-called devil spirits.

Maybe you ought to consider it NOW!

I emphasized "THE" since I believe that biblically there is room for multiple generic "men of God" if you accept the definition as "someone who speaks for God". 2 Timothy 3:17 mentions "man of God", so there must be such an animal, just not as it evolved in TWI.