Oakspear

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

He taught the same thing as Wierwille. I've already said it. No I can't quote it because I threw out the syllabus.

No :ph34r:

dmiller: To take your analogy further, I'm sure that you don't cite "old sheet music" that nobody has ever seen to bolster a claim that what we know as "C sharp" is actually "D sharp", and that the rest of the music world is stupid.

This "principle" didn't necessarily cause problems, but it sure kept them going. If you had a problem with your Corps "leadership", 99% of the time going to the next higher level didn't help, because the "leaders" had each others' back. This applied to non-Corps leaders to a certain extent as well. We had a couple who were coordinating a twig, where the wife was gung-ho to be the leader, and the husband just wasn't into it, and quite obviously didn't want to be running a twig. Several of us talked to the man about quitting, but his wife over-ruled him. We then went to the limb coordinator, who refused to listen to us on the grounds that this couple had been chosen by the previous limb coordinators, and confirmed by the current limb coordinator. If we thought this couple were bad tc's, then we obviously thought that the limb coordinators were incompetant, and since "Reverend Martindale" had chosen the limb leadership, we obviously thought that LCM didn't knnow what he was doing.

It's fake, but at least it's green and piney-looking :P We call it either a Yule tree or a Christmas tree. "Yule tree" because we celebrate Yule and not Christmas, and "Christmas Tree" when we don't want to take the time to explain what we do and don't celebrate. (Us pagans used evergreens before there ever was a Christmas) We pretty much have the tree decorated like most folks: blinking lights, ornaments, a star at the top, stockings hung, little santas scatered around the house...

Nope, he missed Yule/Winter Solstice We're observing Yule tomorrow, but are pretty much saying Merry Christmas to folks anyway :wub:

I'd take that question seriously if it wasn't posed by the champion derailer of GS

...and I'm jonesin' for some Bela Fleck. He came to Lincoln in 2002 and 2004, both times I was in New York when he was here! His tour schedule indicates that he's coming to Lawrence, Kansas, and Kansas City in the spring. May be time for a road trip

Vic Wierwille clearly believed that his interpretation of the bible was superior to anyone else's. He also believed that if the existing texts did not support what he taught, then the text was a forgery, or that there was another text out there that supported his position. For all his talk about PFAL being a "class on keys" for us to learn how to read, interpret and understand the bible for ourselves, and despite his putting the written 'Word' on a pedestal above any opinion or doctrine of men, his word was still elevated above anything that was written in the bible. He was certainly right when he pointed out that no translation can be called THE Word of God, and he was absolutely right when he taught that by making use of the biblical languages, knowledge of eastern customs, figures of speech we could get closer to the 'original' god-breathed Word. But nothing that was written, no textual evidence, no quirks of Hebrew or Aramaic were enough if Wierwille thought it should mean something else. He sold us biblical research, but he delivered blind obedience. Although Wierwille was careful to always elevate the written 'Word', in practice, no text, no verse was as elevated as his own opinion. So, in a sense, Wierwille did believe that his doctrine was superior to the bible in any of it's translations or versions. So, of course he wanted us to "master", not only the bible, but his spin on the bible, PFAL, and all of his other books. But why would I believe that what Wierwille wanted was important? :unsure: Why would I want to master the works of someone known to be a liar and a plagiarist? Someone whose definitions of Greek words are fanciful, and whose interpretations are contrived? Who could twist scripture into a pretzel so it would mean something other than the plain meaning? No thanks.

While I would agree that unless I was napping when it was taught, it wasn't taught that Christians who DON'T speak in tongues aren't saved. However, it was often taught that if someone didn't speak in tongues then you couldn't know, there was no proof, no evidence, that they were saved. It appears that in TWI there were things that were enshrined in PFAL, other things that Wierwille taught at advanced classes or to the Corps that weren't in PFAL, and still other things that Wierwille didn't directly teach, but allowed his people to teach. Sometimes these things were contradictory. I recall that in the first session of the advanced class Wierwille teaches that you can counterfeit speaking in tongues, contrary to what he says in the foundational class. That's one example. An example of Wierwille allowing people to teach something that he rarely or never taught is the MOG concept. He doesn't come out and say it, but he implies it and allows people to make the connection and run with it. I can live with you and me having different standards and threshholds for what we'll believe about Wierwille and TWI; I don't necessarily need to see documentation for everything, since in many cases there is no documentation, despite it being true. It does need (for me) to make sense and fit with the pattern. So, while I agree that "no speaking in tongues = not saved" was not officially taught, cannot be found on the PFAL tape or book, and probably isn't in any other published material, I would bet big money that it was taught unofficially.

WD: I knew that you were quoting another poster, but thanks for clarifying anyway. But I'll say it again, based on Wierwille's doctrine that you couldn't speak in tongues unless you were saved, wouldn't the opposite be true? (or maybe it's inverse or converse? Where's Zixar when you need him?) - that if you couldn't speak in tongues (not won't speak in tongues, not doesn't speak in tongues) than you aren't saved? If I CAN'T speak in tongues, what are the reasons for that inability? Anything other than "not saved" comes down to "not believing to speak in tongues", according to Wierwille's teachings. While I don't recall that exact quote, or anything like it, wouldn't that be a natural extension of what was taught?

That would make sense if WordWolf thought that you would answer his objections, or if they were even really addressed to you any more. WW can correct me if I'm wrong, but I see the Wolf's posts as rebuttals and debunkings of your unique interpretations of PFAL. I think he provides a valuable service here at GS and another thing: Filibustering is different than what is going on here. If GS was the Senate, and WordWolf was filibustering, no one would be able to post until he was finished. Nothing that WordWolf or anyone else does prevents you from posting your message. Nothing compels you to answer him or anyone else. In fact, you couild both be posting at the same time and both of your posts would appear. You make statements that most here think are unfounded. I can only recall one poster who was with you whole hog, and a handful of others who sympathized with you generally, without buying into your basic premise. Anmd you're surprised that someone vehemently disagrees?

I can't believe that this thread has "for once and for all" in the title!

He still tours, although he is allegedly retired. He was in Europe last year, and still plays regularly in Lincoln. Magic is like royalty around here, and works a crowd like a politician. A buddy and I had a bet one night that I could convince Slim that I had played in his band (I am NOT a musician). At about midnight, we had consumed more beers than were good for us, and we approached Magic Slim, who was holding court at the end of the bar. I introduced him to my friend as if Slim and I were old buddies. I then dropped the following line: "Hey Slim, I was just telling Collin here about the time I was playing with you down in Kansas City and my keyboards caught on fire, and those hookers had to put it out with fire extinguishers so we could go on with the show" He looked at me, paused, laughed, and said he remembered that incident, and how funny it was! A week later I was sitting at the bar during an open stage night. Magic Slim's brother Nick was getting ready to play, and noticed that his keyboard player was missing...and invited me to sit in. I had to gracefully decline. At least once a month for the next year or two Nick tried to get me to play with him. Despite continually refusing the offer, Nick and I became drinking buddies. Last Christmas, my three sons met me at the before mentioned bar, Magic Slim and his brother were playing. My oldest son, who had not been much for blues when in his teens, mentioned how he had grown to like the blues and was a great fan of Magic Slim. As surprised as we both were that we liked the same kind of music, my son was even more surprised when Slim and Nick sat down at our table during the break, after Nick gave me a big bear hug. My son looked at me with wide eyes: "You know these guys?" Just a few stories to tell the grandkids!

We had our exchange of gifts Sunday night after dinner at a nice restraurant with my wife & step-daughter, complete with music by Mannheim Steamroller (from Omaha btw) and Trans-Siberian Orchestra, so we get to miss out on the madness of last-minute gift shopping. Our group is doing it's Yule observance on Wednesday night, the evening of the Winter Solstice; my wife and I are officiating this year. I go back to work Wednesday morning after two days off, and expect that it will be crazily busy from then until 6pm Christmas Eve when we close for 36 hours!

"what can be learnt from pfal that isn't already in the Word ?" All of Wierwille's private interpretation

Why not? Because there is no devil and there aren't little "devil-spirits" who possess us.

It was not a waste of time. I made many friends during my days abusing drugs, and got to help others abuse drugs as well. Heck, I wouln't have been able to lose all that weight if it weren't for my heroin habit.

For me, it's been a while since I took any of the Way class PFAL or WayAP, and I don't have any of the written materials anymore, so I can't document anything, one way or the other. I know that I never heard anyone say that if you DON'T speak in tongues you're not saved, acknowledging that some folks get saved and don't choose to speak in tongues. But, WD, the way you've got it written, may have been what was taught. If you CAN'T speak in tongues, as in, you don't have the ABILITY to speak in tongues, wouldn't that mean one wasn't saved? After all, according to Wierwille, if you were not saved, you COULDN'T speak in tongues. That being said, I have no memory of anyone in TWI every saying that NOT speaking in tongues was evidence that someone wasn't saved. Only that speaking in tongues WAS evidence that you were. I do have admittedly hazy memories of people occassionally being maligned, it being suggested that maybe they weren't born again because they had never been heard to speak in tongues. As far as I remember, without having the WayAP syllabus in front of me, Martindale taught Wierwille's formula for salvation, Romans 10:9-10 in his classes. Of course, he was a lot more wordy about it, but I recall that the basic teaching remained the same. He spent a lot of time expounding on what acquiring salvation was not. For example, it was not "accepting Jesus as your personal savior", it was not "reciting the sinners prayer", etc.

That's not what he said

It happens enough.There is a tendency among many to believe that "It wasn't like that when I was in". To admit that abuses were taking place means admitting that you were either evil for supporting the abuses, or stupid for not seeing them; so they didn't happen, or they happened somewhere else where they didn't affect where you where. Few want to admit to either being evil or stupid. So we have those whose position is that TWI was a godly organization, full of sweet wonderful people, teaching 'God's rightly divided Word', until the day that they left

I would imagine the difference would be in whether an offshoot participant views the TWI of Wierwille's day as a godly ministry and PFAL as the best foundational teaching available. Of course, many of us have reassessed our earlier opinion of Wierwille & PFAL, but many still retain the positive view of the man and his class. I can see some folks believing that what they are doing now is 'The Way as it might have been'.

Good rundown on the blues, socks. Lincoln, where I've lived for 24 years, is a blues hotbed. The 'Zoo Bar', has been bringing national acts in here for over 30 years; it helps that we're on sort of a crossroads among Chicago, Denver, Kansas City and Texas. Because of the constant influence of the giants, many of the locals have taken the blues to heart. Ever hear of Magic Slim and the Teardrops, socks? Magic (Morris Holt) is a journeyman Chicago bluesman who made Lincoln his home when he 'retired' a few years back. The missus and I are going out Thursday night to see a local favorite: Electric Soul Method, a fusion of blues, jazz, funk, and some other stuff that I can't identify! They've been talking about touring the midwest, so check 'em out if they come to your town.

Okay, many of us believed at one time that we were in a 'ministry' that was God's primary plan for getting his 'Word' out to the masses. Obviously, if we have left The Way, we no longer believe that the current organization is part of God's plan. Some of us have joined churches, or have our own spirituality independent of any organization. However, quite a few ex-wayfers, including GS posters, belong to groups that are run by former TWI leaders, or incorporate TWI/PFAL doctrines, or even use the PFAL class itself. Who here among 'splinter' participants believes that the organization that they are now part of is a continuation of Wierwille's 'ministry'?