Oakspear

I care to listen, and understand your point, I just don't agree. I believe that while there was some good stuff in PFAL, the seeds for abuse were planted right there in the class; one example is the "every woman belongs to the king" b.s. - my opinion is that PFAL was designed, not as a vehicle to help peoiple, but as a vehicle to control people, any helpful aspects were part of the bait.

Why be surprised that people are willing to go back to that hell-hole? There are many people here who remember with fondness the good ol' days of "TWI 1", still think Wierwille was the greatest thing since sliced bread and continue to run PFAL classes. Who choose to ignore, or place no importance on the lying, the abuse, and all the other crap that went on. Why would we think it incredible that some people actually saw some good in "TWI 2"? After all, there is some truth in the WayAP class; Martindale taught truth some of the time. There were good people and "sweet fellowship" in "TWI 2" as well. :wacko: There are people all over this board who think that there was little or nothing wrong with PFAL, Wierwille, the Corps program, and whatever else, who think it was God's ministry. It's not all that unbelieveable that there would be credulous saps from the later years of TWI to add to those from the earlier years.

That might be something on which to excuse him if that was what he did. What the above quote is describing is someone studying various authors' works, checking their premises and conclusions with the bible, and building his own theory based on bits and pieces of what he learned along the way. What Wierwille did was not what he described in the above quote, in many cases he recopied whole sections of other peoples' books and claimed that they were his own. He claimed that he came up with many things that are also found in Bullinger independent of Bullinger. He claimed that Leonard had great practical knowledge of the manifestations, but did not back it up with 'the Word'. He claimed that he took all of his books out to the city dump and used only his bible. These are what we call "contradictions".

Yeah, and that bad apple was Wierwille and his flawed program based on a stolen class.

But don't you see Igotout? It says faithful stweards of God's Word. Doesn't "faithful" indicate that you won't back off? That you will continue? So, of course it means "Come forth and work for TWI for the rest of your life in their areas of concern interest and need as a staff me". Clear as the shirt on your back. (John, don't you ever throw anything out?)

"So what now? LCM is out, things are moving, people are growing and yes, people are coming back. Not just me but many others. People who stayed on the ship out in the ocean during the rough weather and now are heading into shore over calm seas." LCM is out? Is he really? Isn't his book still on sale in the bookstore when every other person who left has had his books and music purged from the bookstore? Even two books by Wierwille that were "posthumpously edited" by Chris Geer. Hasn't Martindale's class been used as a foundational class for the last 4 years? "Maybe not completely calm, but calmer. As one person posted to me on a previous thread - (basically it seemed to me they said) that it's hard to forgive a ministry or even a person when it seems like no one is asking for your forgiveness." many of us have forgiven, we're just not stupid enough to get fooled again. "This remains to be true in many ways. The offenders though past or present see God's cleansing power as enough" Bullshirt! The offenders don't think that they did anything wrong "and maybe you (and I do mean YOU) got wooded out because their was something wrong with you anyway". I assumed you mean "weeded out" when yopu say 'wooded out". I can't speak for everybody else, but I got "weeded out" because I posted here on GS and "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the minsitry in the right direction". That last quote is by far the stupidest thing you've said thus far. Go on back, you and TWI deserve each other. "Not too many say they are sorry or ask for forgiveness, however, if a person wanted to come back and was willing to forgive the past wrongs - it does take time, no doubt-no doubt! - they would find that miracles are happening with TWI again. I can again say that I've seen amazing things." I'd be amazed if there was the slightest public admission of past wrong-doing. or the tiniest correction of wrong doctrine. Ain't gonna happen though. Miracles? Name a few. "God is ALIVE and is good always." And what does that have to do with following a corrupt organization? "I won't say that wrongs weren't done and perpetrators were violaters" That's more than Rosie and the boyz will say. "but that's NOT ME and that's not MY ministry." Sorry to say, that it IS your ministry, even though you didn't personally "violate". "So I say -if you can't find the Living Word in a church or signs, miracles and wonders, maybe it's time you checked out TWI again because those boys are back in town." Still waiting to hear about those signs, miracles and wonders. perhaps as ficticious as all the "poer" that yopu saw when you were intop spiritualism or whatver you said you were into before TWI. "Thank God I can read the Bible; I can read it too. Too bad TWI doesn't teach it very much. "Can I get another cup of Java while I'm sitting here? Thanks and heads up, hearts out - ready for another day of believing God's Word." Or maybe you want another glass of Kool-Aid?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

He taught the same thing as Wierwille. I've already said it. No I can't quote it because I threw out the syllabus.

No :ph34r:

dmiller: To take your analogy further, I'm sure that you don't cite "old sheet music" that nobody has ever seen to bolster a claim that what we know as "C sharp" is actually "D sharp", and that the rest of the music world is stupid.

This "principle" didn't necessarily cause problems, but it sure kept them going. If you had a problem with your Corps "leadership", 99% of the time going to the next higher level didn't help, because the "leaders" had each others' back. This applied to non-Corps leaders to a certain extent as well. We had a couple who were coordinating a twig, where the wife was gung-ho to be the leader, and the husband just wasn't into it, and quite obviously didn't want to be running a twig. Several of us talked to the man about quitting, but his wife over-ruled him. We then went to the limb coordinator, who refused to listen to us on the grounds that this couple had been chosen by the previous limb coordinators, and confirmed by the current limb coordinator. If we thought this couple were bad tc's, then we obviously thought that the limb coordinators were incompetant, and since "Reverend Martindale" had chosen the limb leadership, we obviously thought that LCM didn't knnow what he was doing.

It's fake, but at least it's green and piney-looking :P We call it either a Yule tree or a Christmas tree. "Yule tree" because we celebrate Yule and not Christmas, and "Christmas Tree" when we don't want to take the time to explain what we do and don't celebrate. (Us pagans used evergreens before there ever was a Christmas) We pretty much have the tree decorated like most folks: blinking lights, ornaments, a star at the top, stockings hung, little santas scatered around the house...

Nope, he missed Yule/Winter Solstice We're observing Yule tomorrow, but are pretty much saying Merry Christmas to folks anyway :wub:

I'd take that question seriously if it wasn't posed by the champion derailer of GS

...and I'm jonesin' for some Bela Fleck. He came to Lincoln in 2002 and 2004, both times I was in New York when he was here! His tour schedule indicates that he's coming to Lawrence, Kansas, and Kansas City in the spring. May be time for a road trip

Vic Wierwille clearly believed that his interpretation of the bible was superior to anyone else's. He also believed that if the existing texts did not support what he taught, then the text was a forgery, or that there was another text out there that supported his position. For all his talk about PFAL being a "class on keys" for us to learn how to read, interpret and understand the bible for ourselves, and despite his putting the written 'Word' on a pedestal above any opinion or doctrine of men, his word was still elevated above anything that was written in the bible. He was certainly right when he pointed out that no translation can be called THE Word of God, and he was absolutely right when he taught that by making use of the biblical languages, knowledge of eastern customs, figures of speech we could get closer to the 'original' god-breathed Word. But nothing that was written, no textual evidence, no quirks of Hebrew or Aramaic were enough if Wierwille thought it should mean something else. He sold us biblical research, but he delivered blind obedience. Although Wierwille was careful to always elevate the written 'Word', in practice, no text, no verse was as elevated as his own opinion. So, in a sense, Wierwille did believe that his doctrine was superior to the bible in any of it's translations or versions. So, of course he wanted us to "master", not only the bible, but his spin on the bible, PFAL, and all of his other books. But why would I believe that what Wierwille wanted was important? :unsure: Why would I want to master the works of someone known to be a liar and a plagiarist? Someone whose definitions of Greek words are fanciful, and whose interpretations are contrived? Who could twist scripture into a pretzel so it would mean something other than the plain meaning? No thanks.

While I would agree that unless I was napping when it was taught, it wasn't taught that Christians who DON'T speak in tongues aren't saved. However, it was often taught that if someone didn't speak in tongues then you couldn't know, there was no proof, no evidence, that they were saved. It appears that in TWI there were things that were enshrined in PFAL, other things that Wierwille taught at advanced classes or to the Corps that weren't in PFAL, and still other things that Wierwille didn't directly teach, but allowed his people to teach. Sometimes these things were contradictory. I recall that in the first session of the advanced class Wierwille teaches that you can counterfeit speaking in tongues, contrary to what he says in the foundational class. That's one example. An example of Wierwille allowing people to teach something that he rarely or never taught is the MOG concept. He doesn't come out and say it, but he implies it and allows people to make the connection and run with it. I can live with you and me having different standards and threshholds for what we'll believe about Wierwille and TWI; I don't necessarily need to see documentation for everything, since in many cases there is no documentation, despite it being true. It does need (for me) to make sense and fit with the pattern. So, while I agree that "no speaking in tongues = not saved" was not officially taught, cannot be found on the PFAL tape or book, and probably isn't in any other published material, I would bet big money that it was taught unofficially.

WD: I knew that you were quoting another poster, but thanks for clarifying anyway. But I'll say it again, based on Wierwille's doctrine that you couldn't speak in tongues unless you were saved, wouldn't the opposite be true? (or maybe it's inverse or converse? Where's Zixar when you need him?) - that if you couldn't speak in tongues (not won't speak in tongues, not doesn't speak in tongues) than you aren't saved? If I CAN'T speak in tongues, what are the reasons for that inability? Anything other than "not saved" comes down to "not believing to speak in tongues", according to Wierwille's teachings. While I don't recall that exact quote, or anything like it, wouldn't that be a natural extension of what was taught?

That would make sense if WordWolf thought that you would answer his objections, or if they were even really addressed to you any more. WW can correct me if I'm wrong, but I see the Wolf's posts as rebuttals and debunkings of your unique interpretations of PFAL. I think he provides a valuable service here at GS and another thing: Filibustering is different than what is going on here. If GS was the Senate, and WordWolf was filibustering, no one would be able to post until he was finished. Nothing that WordWolf or anyone else does prevents you from posting your message. Nothing compels you to answer him or anyone else. In fact, you couild both be posting at the same time and both of your posts would appear. You make statements that most here think are unfounded. I can only recall one poster who was with you whole hog, and a handful of others who sympathized with you generally, without buying into your basic premise. Anmd you're surprised that someone vehemently disagrees?

I can't believe that this thread has "for once and for all" in the title!

He still tours, although he is allegedly retired. He was in Europe last year, and still plays regularly in Lincoln. Magic is like royalty around here, and works a crowd like a politician. A buddy and I had a bet one night that I could convince Slim that I had played in his band (I am NOT a musician). At about midnight, we had consumed more beers than were good for us, and we approached Magic Slim, who was holding court at the end of the bar. I introduced him to my friend as if Slim and I were old buddies. I then dropped the following line: "Hey Slim, I was just telling Collin here about the time I was playing with you down in Kansas City and my keyboards caught on fire, and those hookers had to put it out with fire extinguishers so we could go on with the show" He looked at me, paused, laughed, and said he remembered that incident, and how funny it was! A week later I was sitting at the bar during an open stage night. Magic Slim's brother Nick was getting ready to play, and noticed that his keyboard player was missing...and invited me to sit in. I had to gracefully decline. At least once a month for the next year or two Nick tried to get me to play with him. Despite continually refusing the offer, Nick and I became drinking buddies. Last Christmas, my three sons met me at the before mentioned bar, Magic Slim and his brother were playing. My oldest son, who had not been much for blues when in his teens, mentioned how he had grown to like the blues and was a great fan of Magic Slim. As surprised as we both were that we liked the same kind of music, my son was even more surprised when Slim and Nick sat down at our table during the break, after Nick gave me a big bear hug. My son looked at me with wide eyes: "You know these guys?" Just a few stories to tell the grandkids!

We had our exchange of gifts Sunday night after dinner at a nice restraurant with my wife & step-daughter, complete with music by Mannheim Steamroller (from Omaha btw) and Trans-Siberian Orchestra, so we get to miss out on the madness of last-minute gift shopping. Our group is doing it's Yule observance on Wednesday night, the evening of the Winter Solstice; my wife and I are officiating this year. I go back to work Wednesday morning after two days off, and expect that it will be crazily busy from then until 6pm Christmas Eve when we close for 36 hours!

"what can be learnt from pfal that isn't already in the Word ?" All of Wierwille's private interpretation

Why not? Because there is no devil and there aren't little "devil-spirits" who possess us.

It was not a waste of time. I made many friends during my days abusing drugs, and got to help others abuse drugs as well. Heck, I wouln't have been able to lose all that weight if it weren't for my heroin habit.