Oakspear

Bramble: Interesting what you say about fellowship being "sweet" compared to current innies saying the same thing! Both times, early 90's and the last several years, The Way Int'l was attempting to recover from a catastophic series of events. From 1989 onward they were trying to recover from the blow of having the previously untouchable MOG exposed, having the MOG agree with his accuser, with there being confusion throughout the "Way Tree" and a mass exodus of leadership and rank & file. In 2001 and following TWI was trying to recover from the MOG being actually deposed and all the attendant confusion, as well as an exodus. Perhaps in both time frames the Board of Trustees/Directors was backing off on the legalism and abuse in order to lull those who remained into a false sense of security. Secure in the knowledge that they had all made the right decision in sticking with the Trustees.

...another whorehouse... Most of my ROA experiences were pleasant, even in the 90's, but I remember becoming aware in '91 or '92 that tent city was becoming "sin city". Many of the adults were no longer enamored of tent camping and had upgraded to RV's or motel rooms. Quite a number of them allowed their teenagers to pitch tents for the week. I actually liked being "on grounds", so decided to pass up on a hotel, and just couldn't afford an RV rental, so I was in tent city. I lost count of how many teens were having sex out in the tents, and how much beer was being smuggled in. I made sure that I knew where my own two teenage boys were at all times, and checked on them frequently; I pretty much kept them on a short leash. Back home I made my concerns known to local leadership and was literally laughed at. I was asked to take another family's teenage boy with me the next year. I agreed, with the condition that he be on a "short leash", like my own kids. The parents insisted that their son was mature and refused, sending him with our twig coordinators, who were already "overseeing" another teenage boy. During the ROA he was caught with beer and a naked girl in his tent; a number of other teens were also found to be engaging in drinking, smoking pot and sex in tent city. Martindale made a big to-do about it. Of course, now that the MOG was upset about it, everybody else was too.

Knowing what I know now, from my own experience and testimony from GS and other places, most active TWI people (at least in my area) were in a state of denial. I wasn't at ROA 1989 as WordWolf was, but our twig coordinators gave me the set of tapes to listen to. I remember certain sections where Martindale talks about the people who left in very negative terms, and saying to my wife at the time that these guys just need to grow up and stop acting like junior high kids. WordWolf mentions the mass firings and the letters. I came back after this, but had thought it odd that the BOT made little or no effort to get people out to replace the ones that they were firing. In a situation with finger-pointing and accusations like happened in TWI people tend to trust those that they know. And the people that they knew were the local leaders. These were the people who could explain their position, justify their actions, convince you of the rightness of their stance. The BOT were far away in Ohio, and didn't make an effort to explain, justify, or convince. Before the mass firings, Nebraska had a decent sized branch in Omaha, a small branch or twig area in Lincoln, and a handful of twigs in smaller towns. Most people stayed with the twigs that they were in after leaders were either quit or were fired. In the aftermath there were two small twigs in Lincoln, and one in Omaha. The new Limb Coordinator was a guy who barely had enough on the ball to be running a twig, and wouldn't have been doing even that if there had been any competition for the job. By ROA 1990, several people who, like us, had been away from TWI for a number of years, and had missed "the fog years" started coming back. So the situation was that the leaders were people who had stuck with Martindale through the so-called fog, while the non-leaders were mainly people who were stuck back in the early eighties, or late seventies, and still expected everything to be done like in the good ol' days. I don't remember a lot of the teaching topics, but I do remember that one of the first "grad nights" that I attended, we "worked" Christians Should Be Prosperous. They pushed really hard to get folks tithing. There was also a lot of discussion amongst the grads about "seed of the serpent". Martindale had done a version of Dealing With the Adversary (this was sveral years before he did the Defeating the Adversary class) that concentrated on this subject. There seemed to be much more discussion and speculation on devil spirits, "seed boys", and the Athletes of the Spirit video.

In 1983 my family and I had stopped active participation in TWI due to a dispute with our Limb Coordinator. We never gave up on Way doctrine however. In 1990 we started making inquiries about getting involved again, since we wanted our oldest child to take PFAL. We still had contact with some "innies", who set up a meeting with the Limb Coordinators. At that meeting was the first time we heard about the split between Martindale and Geer. Previously we had heard hints about problems down in Texas, where two of my former room mates had moved after getting married, but didn't realize the size or extent of it. Since I had not been involved for so long, all I had to go by was my LC's account of events. Obviously anyone that I talked to at twig would have decided to stick with Martindale, and had made up their mind before I ever came along. Then listening to the "Leaders' tapes" gave me more of a slanted view of how things happened. As I found out later, there were people running offshoot/splinter and independent fellowships in Lincoln and Omaha, but at the time I didn't know who they were or how to contact them, having been out of TWI circulation for years. As you can imagine (or maybe remember) the "Leaders' tapes" left a lot out. Everything is presented from the point of view of Geer being possessed and trying to wreck "the ministry". There is no mention of Lynn, Dubofsky and others who were fired by Geer; there is no mention of the allegations of adultery; everything was presented to make it look like a failed takeover attempt. Since I still held with most PFAL doctrine, and had no real problem with Wierwille, I decided to get back involved in TWI. I was convinced that Martindale had held off an attack of the adversary, and was thankful that the organization still existed after losing so many people. In some respects, it was if I had never left. Twigs were still run the same way, PFAL was still the same. Not a lot had changed...that I could see. As time went by I would change my assessment.

And I agree with that.But even if true, we would be revictimizing the victims.

I cut this one off at 1992 since that was the year that Martindale taught his Defeating the Adversary class as part of his Advanced Class Special on Discerning of Spirits. The "Leaders' Tapes", formerly known as the "Galatians tapes" were being run PFAL, the Rock of Ages and the WOW program were all still in existance. Don & Howard were still on the Board of Trustees. Word in Business Conferences were still being run every year.

What kind of organization is it when people are seriously talking about waiting for top leaders to "die off" before any chnages can be made? I remember thinking that on a local level more than once. We'd have a psycho branch or limb coordinator, and couldn't wait until Corps assignments to see if he'd be reassigned. And what if there are "sleepers" or "moiles" out there, climbing the ladder of leadership while somehow remaining "pure"? Do you have any idea how tough it is to truly lead a "double life"? There are several of us who did just that for a short period of time...it grinds you down.

Hello! [cut] Try a little restraint, why doncha? Most, if not all allegations of sexual abuse by TWI leaders on this forum have come from the victims themselves, or in rare instances, their spouses. How would you like to look at a public forum some fine morning and see suggestions like we've seen in this thread? Don't drag his family down while we're telling the truth (as we see it) about Wierwille. All of his surviving children at least had the sense to get out of TWI. Cut this sh%t out!

Me neither. Even when things were worst in my (first) marriage, I still didn't consider divorce. Because I didn't consider it, I put up with all manner of abuse, even being thrown out of my own house. It was only when I realized what salvaging my marriage meant that I filed for divorce.

So...what would have been the point of all this teaching on the number of bad guys in PFAL? It establishes Wierwille's credentials as someone who exposes the "lies" of mainstream Christianity. He sets up an "apparent contradiction" and explains it in such a way that his biblical detective skills are glorified, and the credibility of just about everyone in Christendom is maligned. Therefore...listen to VP Wierwille! I mean, come on...who really gives a rat's foot about biblical trivia such as four crucified? It's all designed to set in cement Wierwille's interpretation as unassailable.

Despite my brief answer farther up the page , it really is a moot point for me regarding going back. Since leaving TWI my religious beliefs have changed enough that I would not be welcome no matter how nice they've become. But even if that were not the case, I have come to the conclusion that Wierwille's PFAL, though promoted as a class to learn keys to understanding the bible, was really all about manipulating the bible to back up whatever theology Wierwille came up with. Whether Wierwille was sincere or not isn't even the issue anymore either. At best PFAL was based on scraps and bits from other authors, but ultimately it elevated Wierwille's opinion over the written bible. The scholarship was shoddy, the logic was shaky, and the application was manipulative. One of the reasons that I got involved in TWI: that PFAL offered a reliable method to really understanding the bible, has been revealed to me as a sham and a scam. There is no reason why I would go back to an organization where deception was part of its very foundation. The other reason that became involved was that I thought that people cared about me. Well, some did, but most didn't. Most cared whether or not I followed the dictates of Wierwille. Even back in the good ol' days when I thought things were great.

He can always go back to college later if he wants to get a degree.

Came out in the mid- to late- nineties. It was a book of photos of the Way International grounds. If I remember correctly is was divided into 4 seasons. And yes, they did call it "the coffee table book". :blink:

More on my house and the evil BC ... Generally I am a very orderly person, I like things in their places, and for them to be put back where they were. My dad was (is!) like this, and he got it from his mom. However, my ex-wife was not willing to do all the extra work that it took to keep all six kids at this level of "decent and in order". So I sympathize with rascal's husband! Anyway, I had accepted it, although areas that were 100% mine, like my home office, were pretty orderly. Our Branch Coordinators were newlyweds, and only in their second year of being out of residence (they were 20th or 21st Corps) They were pretty busy at the time of this story, maybe they were running the first batch of WayAP classes, I don't remember for sure, but they were running their @sses off. We decided to be helpful and offered to feed them. Nothing formal or fancy, just some tuna casserole and veggies. the idea was that we could contribute to "the moving of the Word" by freeing up our leaders from the duty of cooking and preparing dinner this one night. At the time, all six of my children were living at home. My oldest was about 17 or 18, and the various other kids were aged 15, 11, 9, 8, and 4. We home schooled them, and I worked primarily out of the home, so usually the living room would be filled with school desks, piles of books, both our own and from the library, and stacks of boxes filled with school supplies and whatever else we didn't have room for in the closet. Mr. BC was quite, almost sullen throughout dinner, answering questions in a curt manner, usually of one word. His wife looked confused, and kept looking to him for some kind of clue as to what his problem was. When he finished eating he got up, said good night and walked out. The next morning I received a phone call from Mr. BC, asking if he and his wife could come over and talk to me and my wife over the noon hour. I told him that we didn't like to have our school day interrupted, and that I was working, but that noon was as good a time as any to take lunch. he replied that we would not be eating. When they showed up we were ripped into for virtually every aspect of how we kept our house. From the living room to the kitchen to the garage. later, we were called before the BC's and several other leaders to be confronted again, since our cleaning and organizing wasn't up to par. This resulted in months of surprise inspections.

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Yup, I remember that. late 90's.

Well Mex, the "innies" threw me out. If I "fellowshipped" with them, I can't imagine being allowed to freely speak the "truth". And btw, I don't believe in the devil.

When my ex-wife and I were running a twig at our home, we had a big coat rack next to the front door. We mainly had it because, although it was a roomy five-bedroom house, it didn't have much closet space. In addition to the coats, we started storing stuff on top of it, usually a big 30-cup coffee pot, and maybe some baseball caps. Our BC would almost get the shakes when he saw the "disorder" of that coffee pot up there. After we were no longer twig coordinators, we really spread out our home schooling stuff in the living room. The kids would set up their desks wherever it was convenient: close to the book shelf that had their books on it, or near the window, or close to mom's table, whatever. Ol' anal-retentive BC came over and "suggested" that we line up all the desks, and line up all the pens and pencils in the desks :blink: - yeah, that helped them learn better.

No, we shouldn't (to answer the question the title of this thread asks)

Bottom line for me: I can't really know for sure, so I always consider it as a possibility. I'm open to spiritual and/or supernatural experiences, but I'm not open to gettting played for a sucker. If I hear a voice telling me to "be still and enjoy the beautiful sunset", it doesn't much matter if I'm deluded, or some bad drugs are finally kicking in; but if the voice says "give all your money to a ministry that is teaching the accuracy of God's Word", I'll consider the delusion angle a little more seriously. Assume that there is no God? I have no problem with that, nor do I have a problem with there being one. If there is or isn't a God is not determined by what I think. Ethics, love, compassion, all manner of good works speak louder when they are done altruistically, rather than because that is what some deity expects. This is not to say that religious faith taints any of thse actions, but that purely humanistic motives can be just as great.

"Originally", back on WayDale, I signed up as Taoiseach (pronounced Tay-Shock), which is a gaelic word that I believe means "leader" and is the title of the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland. I had seen it in a book I was reading and liked the look of it. A short time later I also signed up as Twyril III, a character in a novel I tried to write in college. I kept both characters going to keep the WayGB guessing. I used Taoiseach to complain about TWI abuses that I personally suffered, and Twyril III (which I later shortened to simply "Twyril") to post "insider information", and made it known that i was an "innie". Toward the end of my time in TWI I added a third handle, John Oakspear, which I pretended was my real name. I used it to participate in some of the lighter threads. In the fall of 2001 I was found out by the WayGB: they figured out that I was Twyril. I tried to go back to using Taoiseach, but had originally registered on WayDale as a local user, and could not use that handle as a global user on Grease Spot. I briefly registered as Taoi seach (same name with a space), but too many people thought that it was Tao Search (i.e. a searcher for the Tao, or The Way) that I went back to Oakspear, leaving out the "John" and no longer acting like it was my name. The oak was the sacred tree of the celts, and the word for oak is the root of the word "druid". I had begun exploring the Old Religion of the Celts and wanted to honor that aspect of my ancestors' faith. I tacked on "spear", partly because it sounded cool, partly because it represented war, and I was declaring war on TWI. I use it all the time now, and in certain contexts I think of myself as "Oakspear"; on my 2002 tour and at the Weenie Roasts, most people called me "Oakspear" rather than "Tom".

socks: That makes sense. From all accounts, Martindale was acting like a whipped puppy from POP onwards. The whole chest beating thing just didn't make sense, did it? In retrospect, Martindale, Allen and Don Wierwille appear to have had been going along with what Geer said just so he'd shut up; like a kid who tells his parents he'll behave, all the while planning his next act of rebellion

Here's another one that I'm planning on seeing soon: Chris Duarte. He'll be here in Lincoln in March. Chris is rooted in the blues, but is influenced by jazz, beat poetry, and goddess knows what else. Veeeerrry talented guitarist.

I hate to admit this, but on one tiny little point, I agree with Oldies *wince*:( Whether we realized it or not, if you were heavily involved in TWI, you were standing with a man, and that man was Wierwille, and later Martindale. Don't get me wrong, the demand for a written declaration of loyalty, in light of his previous admission that what Geer said in POP was right, was a red flag, and a not-so-subtle hint to get out! But to say "I stand with God" implies that TWI didn't involve standing with a man, when it clearly did. "Don't give me that standing with God crap" does not address whether someone is actually standing with God, but the avoidance of the question of which man or organization that the believer will be "standing with God" with. You don't need anybody or any group to stand with God? I agree...now, but that's not what TWI taught.

We have a winner! "Hush" was the first big hit by the original version of Deep Purple. It was actually written by Joe South, and was one of several covers that Purple did on their first coupla' albums take it away George