Oakspear

Well, you at least believe in that which you despise I think you just made my point :blink: Thank you Mark, I will...and by the way, neither one of us claim to be atheists

No, they battle against the belief in something whose existance they deny, and it's influence on society. Nice doubletalk. Some theists can't imagine not having a god, so they project that lack of imagination on those who don't have one.

Actually, "The Way Corps as enforcers" was one of the things that came about in this time frame, now that you mention it. Since most of the independent-minded, in-it-to-serve-God people had quit or were fired, those that were left in mnay cases were anxious to "keep the household pure", and identify anyone who wasn't 100% with the program.

LG: There might be some that say that morals and ethics among the non-theistic are situational or opportunistic. I would put the same argument back to the theists: If your god changed his mind, about murder, would you? Or stealing? Or lying? Or adultery?

Lovin' Spoonful, maybe...no idea as to the name of then tune

Apparently those who posted on the subject.

Another thing was that I could actually interact with people, and have honest conversations about what was going on, with people who were going through similar things. Abigail, Belle and I were all married to "innies" who wanted to stay in, and we were all either recently out or heading in that direction. The support that I received from those two ladies was priceless.

Congratulations anamchara

There's a bit of inconsistancy in your posts doojable. It looks like you're saying that even though LG's daughter never believed in God, she was influenced by theistic beliefs since she has heard of him, but you're not influenced by "the god or gods of volcanos, the sea, rivers, the seasons, the sun, moon, and stars...fairy, leprechaun, or forest nymph bells", even though you've heard of them, since you never believed in them. LG is presenting his daughter as an example of someone who can be a good, moral person without ever having a belief in a god, and you're doubting that it can be so. I would guess that LG knows his daughter better than either of us.

I...heard...about...it...from...a...couple...who...had...left Nothing specific, just that some people had left and that those that left were still having meetings, teachings, witnessing, etc. One thing that I was told was that "HQ could move the Word in Ohio, we're going to move the Word in Texas". As far as being hard to control, I don't think that any area couild be controlled without the cooperation of local WC. After all, they were the way the control had always been administered. When there is an en masse walk-out, or firing, and the structure of twigs, branches, etc is carried over, what most people came to twigs for still exists. they don't have to get involved in battles, they just continue on as before. In doing the mass firings, the BOT just made it easier for parrellel organizations to flourish.

Dizzy: In my opinion, Wierwille included this in his class (he apparently got it from Bullinger), not because he cared, or thought it was necessary for salvation, but because it afforded him an opportunity to demonstrate his superiority over the majority of Christian theologians. It positioned him as the one who we should listen to, and mainstream Christianity as unreliable.

WD & GS helped me see that the problems that we were having in our area where not abberations, but par for the course. That the abuse by "leaders" was systemic, not isolated. Discussion with others helped motivate me to investigate their teachings.

Scribes who study insects?

Actually, i didn't hear about the "trouble in Texas" from TWI, I heard about it from a couple who had left.

http://www.meta-religion.com/Psychiatry/De...tal_illness.htmYou can't seriously think that there aren't other explanations that are as plausible as possession.

I don't know that I was saying that it was a loving ministry, but that the atmosphere appeared that way, kind of a calm before the storm kind of thing. Looking back, the BOT were laying low, so to speak, until they could reinstitute their controlling policies. The tide changed when the plans were laid for an "Advanced Class Special on Discerning of Spirits", held at Headquarters. The first few days of the class turned out to be the filming of the new class, Defeating the Adversary. A large portion of the class turned out to an exposition on the Book of Job, focussing on the "miserable comforters", and the fourth guy (whose name escapes me), who he declared was "seed of the serpent", that Martindale laid the foundation for in "The Leadership Tapes". The second part of the class was a disjointed walk through Martindale's files, where he "identified" people in politics, music, sports, etc, who were "seed of the serpent" or possessed. This is also where he introduced the concept that "discerning of spirits" was not necessarily revelation, but that possession could be identified purely by observed characteristics.

Main Entry: jin·go·ism Pronunciation: 'ji[ng]-(")gO-"i-z&m Function: noun : extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy

I too remember the first couple of years in the 90's being a lot more fun than what came later. Not that there were no problems, but that local areas for the most part were self-governing. People hung out together outside of twig, and it was tough to get people to go home after a twig or limb meeting. As far as interference from the Way Corps, our LC was so ineffectual that if he tried to get pushy, people would politely smile and nod, and do whatever they wanted to do, with no follow up by the LC. In fact, the opposite was true; there were several people who saw things were too loose. They thought that "the standard of The Word" was not being adhered to, that people who had no intention of "doing The Word" were being allowed to attend twigs. The main agitators were three women who had been involved in TWI since the early 70's, including my ex-wife. In a lot of respects things in our area had swung quite far from legalism. There were several PFAL grads who refused to even consider speaking in tongues. They hadn't SIT'd during Session Twelve, didn't see the need for it, and resisted all attempts to "lead them into" tongues. We had a sixty-ish lady who hung around mainly out of loneliness, would say, after every teaching "That was a nice lesson", but couldn't tell you what was actually taught. We didn't do a lot of organized witnessing, but would bring folks who we thought were interested. We ran a PFAL class in late 1990, mostly for children of grads, and didn't run another during the 1989-1992 time frame. Things were laid back, but there was that undercurrent of agitation from the women I previously mentioned. All during this time, Martindale was being portrayed as the strong leader who had stood against the forces of darkness and survived, a true heir to "Doctor" Wierwille, and worthy of our loyalty. For most of us, having missed out on the "fog", the P.O.P., and everything else that followed, our opinions were skewed by lack of information. We were not given all the facts and didn't really know where we could go to get them. During this time, Martindale was usually yelling whenever he taught. At the time, fooled as I was, I thought that the yelling showed how serious he was about "The Word". The yelling hadn't filtered down to the twigs yet.

I had more silly reproofs come out of my mouth than I can keep track of. My oldest son and I get together occassionally and laugh about them.

Bramble: Interesting what you say about fellowship being "sweet" compared to current innies saying the same thing! Both times, early 90's and the last several years, The Way Int'l was attempting to recover from a catastophic series of events. From 1989 onward they were trying to recover from the blow of having the previously untouchable MOG exposed, having the MOG agree with his accuser, with there being confusion throughout the "Way Tree" and a mass exodus of leadership and rank & file. In 2001 and following TWI was trying to recover from the MOG being actually deposed and all the attendant confusion, as well as an exodus. Perhaps in both time frames the Board of Trustees/Directors was backing off on the legalism and abuse in order to lull those who remained into a false sense of security. Secure in the knowledge that they had all made the right decision in sticking with the Trustees.

...another whorehouse... Most of my ROA experiences were pleasant, even in the 90's, but I remember becoming aware in '91 or '92 that tent city was becoming "sin city". Many of the adults were no longer enamored of tent camping and had upgraded to RV's or motel rooms. Quite a number of them allowed their teenagers to pitch tents for the week. I actually liked being "on grounds", so decided to pass up on a hotel, and just couldn't afford an RV rental, so I was in tent city. I lost count of how many teens were having sex out in the tents, and how much beer was being smuggled in. I made sure that I knew where my own two teenage boys were at all times, and checked on them frequently; I pretty much kept them on a short leash. Back home I made my concerns known to local leadership and was literally laughed at. I was asked to take another family's teenage boy with me the next year. I agreed, with the condition that he be on a "short leash", like my own kids. The parents insisted that their son was mature and refused, sending him with our twig coordinators, who were already "overseeing" another teenage boy. During the ROA he was caught with beer and a naked girl in his tent; a number of other teens were also found to be engaging in drinking, smoking pot and sex in tent city. Martindale made a big to-do about it. Of course, now that the MOG was upset about it, everybody else was too.

Knowing what I know now, from my own experience and testimony from GS and other places, most active TWI people (at least in my area) were in a state of denial. I wasn't at ROA 1989 as WordWolf was, but our twig coordinators gave me the set of tapes to listen to. I remember certain sections where Martindale talks about the people who left in very negative terms, and saying to my wife at the time that these guys just need to grow up and stop acting like junior high kids. WordWolf mentions the mass firings and the letters. I came back after this, but had thought it odd that the BOT made little or no effort to get people out to replace the ones that they were firing. In a situation with finger-pointing and accusations like happened in TWI people tend to trust those that they know. And the people that they knew were the local leaders. These were the people who could explain their position, justify their actions, convince you of the rightness of their stance. The BOT were far away in Ohio, and didn't make an effort to explain, justify, or convince. Before the mass firings, Nebraska had a decent sized branch in Omaha, a small branch or twig area in Lincoln, and a handful of twigs in smaller towns. Most people stayed with the twigs that they were in after leaders were either quit or were fired. In the aftermath there were two small twigs in Lincoln, and one in Omaha. The new Limb Coordinator was a guy who barely had enough on the ball to be running a twig, and wouldn't have been doing even that if there had been any competition for the job. By ROA 1990, several people who, like us, had been away from TWI for a number of years, and had missed "the fog years" started coming back. So the situation was that the leaders were people who had stuck with Martindale through the so-called fog, while the non-leaders were mainly people who were stuck back in the early eighties, or late seventies, and still expected everything to be done like in the good ol' days. I don't remember a lot of the teaching topics, but I do remember that one of the first "grad nights" that I attended, we "worked" Christians Should Be Prosperous. They pushed really hard to get folks tithing. There was also a lot of discussion amongst the grads about "seed of the serpent". Martindale had done a version of Dealing With the Adversary (this was sveral years before he did the Defeating the Adversary class) that concentrated on this subject. There seemed to be much more discussion and speculation on devil spirits, "seed boys", and the Athletes of the Spirit video.

In 1983 my family and I had stopped active participation in TWI due to a dispute with our Limb Coordinator. We never gave up on Way doctrine however. In 1990 we started making inquiries about getting involved again, since we wanted our oldest child to take PFAL. We still had contact with some "innies", who set up a meeting with the Limb Coordinators. At that meeting was the first time we heard about the split between Martindale and Geer. Previously we had heard hints about problems down in Texas, where two of my former room mates had moved after getting married, but didn't realize the size or extent of it. Since I had not been involved for so long, all I had to go by was my LC's account of events. Obviously anyone that I talked to at twig would have decided to stick with Martindale, and had made up their mind before I ever came along. Then listening to the "Leaders' tapes" gave me more of a slanted view of how things happened. As I found out later, there were people running offshoot/splinter and independent fellowships in Lincoln and Omaha, but at the time I didn't know who they were or how to contact them, having been out of TWI circulation for years. As you can imagine (or maybe remember) the "Leaders' tapes" left a lot out. Everything is presented from the point of view of Geer being possessed and trying to wreck "the ministry". There is no mention of Lynn, Dubofsky and others who were fired by Geer; there is no mention of the allegations of adultery; everything was presented to make it look like a failed takeover attempt. Since I still held with most PFAL doctrine, and had no real problem with Wierwille, I decided to get back involved in TWI. I was convinced that Martindale had held off an attack of the adversary, and was thankful that the organization still existed after losing so many people. In some respects, it was if I had never left. Twigs were still run the same way, PFAL was still the same. Not a lot had changed...that I could see. As time went by I would change my assessment.

And I agree with that.But even if true, we would be revictimizing the victims.

I cut this one off at 1992 since that was the year that Martindale taught his Defeating the Adversary class as part of his Advanced Class Special on Discerning of Spirits. The "Leaders' Tapes", formerly known as the "Galatians tapes" were being run PFAL, the Rock of Ages and the WOW program were all still in existance. Don & Howard were still on the Board of Trustees. Word in Business Conferences were still being run every year.