Oakspear

ROA '95. Rains on top of rains. Tent City floods...BAD, including the tent with me, my wife and four of our six kids (the youngest was 4). We had spent the night sleeping in the tents that were for the Corps, or international people or something. I stayed at the tent to clean up while my wife went to work at children's fellowship (our ROA "assignment). At "twig time" I grabbed my bible and dashed over to the twig area. My wife met me there, with the younger kids in tow. She was about one minute late because she had stopped to get a snack for the little ones. Our branch coordinator, who I have nicknamed "The Highlander" ripped her a new one for being late, and for forgetting her bible, and me for not making sure that my wife was on time and in possession of her bible. Like idiots, we took it.

Yeah, there are good Christians on all sides of the debate. All sides present their scriptures as if there weren't contradictory ones, and all sides present their arguments as if their analogies are the only ones that make sense. There are too many arguments that misrepresent another side: "The bible teaches one God, not three" or "How could Jesus be the perfect sacrifice when only God was perfect?" There are many places where Jesus Christ is clearly called a man. There are also places where he is credited with the qualities of God. In some places he is even called God (Thomas: "my Lord and my God") I believe mainstream Christianity's view of the godhead was an honest attempt to reconcile conflicting and unclear verses in a way that was consistant and made sense. They didn't always succeed. The many versions of "unitarianism" attempted to do the same. Unfortunately, it's not spelled out in black and white.

The more I think about it Oldiesman, aren't you the guy who has gotten mad when other posters bring your sister into the discussion? Say whatever you need to say to me, but keep my wife out of it.

I did not compare "likemindedness" as a biblical principle to the stink of sewage. The comparison was to liken what went on in TWI as "the stink of sewage", and GS as a breath of fresh air. The context is freedom of speech. Golly? Gee, Mr. Cleaver, I don't believe that there will be a third heaven and earth. Well, even if there was such a thing as the third heaven & earth, we'd be dead at that the time, so I guess its a moot point. And I suppose since neither of us worship your God, we'd be in the lake of fire or something equally horrible.

...and I loved Donnie Osmond in Jeff Beck's Ambitious video. B) ^_^

Bernita Jess did the Orientalisms, and some of the Aramaic work, but I don't think she had the chops to be the driving force behind the interlinear. I don't think that Mal George was the guy either...would be very surprised if he was. Gary Curtis maybe?

Mike, you may be right, you may be wrong...I'm sure there are many "elements" to whatever you want to talk about...but no, I can't read your mind and figure out what exactly you are talking about. You crack me up. You contiinue to define the rules as you go along. When you make up the rules, don't tell anyone what they are, and decide who is worthy to debate you based on those secret rules, of course, in your own mind, you always win. Nice racket

I disagree with your conclusion here. He implied quite strongly that he was a prophet by defining a prophet as one who spoke for God, then making it clear that he was speaking for God. I also disagree with you that his failure to overtly claim prophethood disqualifies him from being a false prophet. My logical powers are failing me just now, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

No, I am comparing fresh air with the stink of sewage.

An urban legend is always believable on some level. IMHO this story was floating a round even before PFAL, and Wierwille latched onto it for teaching purposes.

If my memory serves me correctly, the only biblical title Wierwille overtly claimed was "teacher", in fact "THE Teacher". However he implied that he was due some of the other titles. His definition of apostle was tailored to apply primarily to him, and even prophet, "one who speaks for God", could arguably be defined to apply to him as well. Absence of his claim to prophethood does not invalidate calling him a false prophet, although false teacher may be closer to the mark for those of us who believe that he was indeed "false".

But in TWI there were no "tokens", everybody had to "speak the same thing". Your Mormonism, which is outside the GS "mainstream", is sometimes the object of attack, but there is absolutely nothing that stoips you from posting. In TWI, there was no debate, there was no meaningful discussion, if you didn't believe what the top dogs said to believe: see ya!

The big question is: Did he get a secret decoder ring with that doctorate?

Despite my southern neighbor's complaining about an unlevel playing field, Grease Spot has posters who hold a variety of opinions. Despite this site being primarily to expose the "other side" to TWI's claims, PFAL fans and Wierwille fans of all stripes post freely. True, the "majority" often "gangs up" on the minority voices, but they continue to type away, unedited, if unheeded. We even get the occassional "innie" singing the praises of their fellowship and the wisdom of TWI "leadership". What kind of freedom existed or exists in TWI? Would Mark O'Malley or Templelady be free to discuss Catholocism or Mormonism? Would I be able to talk about my wife's tarot reading business? Would Raf be able to discuss actual errors in PFAL? Or for that matter would Mike be able to hold forth on the god-breathed nature of PFAL, or would Oldiesman be free to claim that abundant sharing as taught in Christians Should Be Prosperous is unbiblical? For each of you "innies" or Wierwille fans who think that there is too much negative said about your heroes, what would have happened if Wierwille or Martindale were told that they were being too negative about the Pope, or Jews, or Teddy Kennedy? Grease Spot is a messy, sometimes rude and uncouth forum that sometimes seems like a bar room brawl in progress or maybe a grade school playground spat. I'll take it any day over the enforced "likemindedness" of TWI.

No...we don't hear enough. Oh, and btw, does your "leadership" know that you're posting here? Posting here is part of why I was booted out of TWI

Part of the definition of an urban legend is a story that always happens to someone else, no one claims to have seen it, or experienced it, or seen documentation. It's always "I talked to soemone who..." or 'I know someone who..." - never first person.

White Dove: Whether Wierwille "compiled" works from other authors, or "stole" them has little to do with whether he was a false prophet, IMHO. Futhermore, the truth or "accuracy" of these teachings was but a part of what went into the genuineness of his "ministry". In my mind, what made Wierwille a false prophet was using what he taught to take advantage of and control others.

Dude, it was mail order doctorate

While the answer of "I stand with God" is the right one for a Christian who doesn't want to blindly follow a man, we were all part of an organization that expected just that from us, if not from day one, then from very early on. Wierwille demanded it as well, but was smart enough to (usually) cloak it in more diplomatic tones. Attempting to remain within TWI without agreeing to blindly follow its head ignored the way things were. Trying to "stand with God" could best be accomplished with TWI by ignoring its true nature. Martindale screwed himself by not reigning in his true nature, by believing his own press clippings, and demanding what Wierwille was able to get from us with honey, rather than vinegar.

what I want to know is: where is that champagne that got uncorked after we found all those actual arrors?

...and the non sequiter society is heard from again <_< Despite the supposed unlevel playing field, dissenting opinions still abound.

If the shoe fits, White Dove...

Soooooo.... ...what does the term "Wierwillite" mean to you?

That is most un-Christian thing to say and you can be a better man if you forgive them Couldn't resist...

The term "Wierwillite" gets tossed around here a lot. For those who use it, just what do you mean by it? Me, when I use it, I am talking about someone who uncritically accepts Wierwille's teachings. I do believe that some of what Wierwille taught could be justified biblically, but that due to the tangled web of plagiarism, lying, poor scholarship, and yes, his personal immorality, PFAL and his other teachings cannot be used as a starting point for finding the truth or biblical understanding.