Jim

The train just jumped off the tracks. Nobody questions the existence of Paul, George Washington or the Eiffel Tower. They all exist or existed. What we are discussing is the possible difference between peoples' actual lives and how history paints them. George Washington is a good example. I learned in grade school that he existed and that he was a great man. Many years later I learned that he owned slaves from the time he was eleven until he died.

Don't think that's the question. VPW, Joseph Smith and Mohammad all saw the light.

Exe, I always look forward to your posts and I never find them boring. I wished you could share more...

Well said Tzaia and Waysider.

I feel myself being pulled into the vortex of circular logic again. The record of Paul was written by people that loved Paul. Just as VPW was described by us to others in the 70's, those records may not reflect the true Paul. We don't know. Or rather, I don't know. You are convinced that you know and that's ok, but I don't. Mohammad gained a huge following and is venerated amongst the Muslims at least as much as Paul is amongst Christians. Can we apply that as a standard of goodness or rightness or righteousness?

Sure was. I think it was around 1977. It really separated the brown-shirts from the rest of us. At the ROA at the end of the year Vic's keystone teaching was on healing. I wonder why.

That's a big one for me. How about the overwhelming pressure to "move the Word"? I hated witnessing. Religion was always a personal thing with me. I don't like talking about my beliefs to others and I don't want them to talk to me about them unless they know me *real* good. The year of door-to-door was probably the worse year in TWI for me. The greatest freedom I felt after I left TWI was to realize that I didn't have to feel guilty about not wanting to "move the Word" and that I could get on with my professional career and my relationship with the woman I later married.

Erkjohn, I followed you until you said this: Non sequitur. Any number of Joseph Smiths and VP Wierwilles have left their mark on religious history while being loose cannons and womanizers. And they were not necessarily run out of town on a rail.

So we can expect Joe Coulter to moonlight as a cable guy?

Yawn. If I wanted to see more Bible-thumping, I'd stick "The Apostile" in the DVD player. Robert Duvall is a better actor.

I love it. My wife loved it. I was just fine with the new-age whatever that might have offended others. The 3D was finally done right and the content was excellent. Weaver should have lost the cigarette though... It's the classic Joesph Conrad "Heart of Darkness" plot. Civilized company man goes in to subdue and exploit the natives, becomes converted by the natives, then battles the company that sent him in.

"Truth" is a word that I seldom use, either in my thoughts or conversation. And I tend to back away slowly anytime anyone claims to know The Truth or wants to tell me where I can find it.

Sadly VPW's attitude infected most everyone. Marc Andreessen, one of the founders of Netscape said something like "Netscape started with employees that wanted to make it a successful company and ended up with employees that wanted to work for a successful company. I saw some of this principle at work in TWI.

Everyone has feet of clay. I have feet of clay and have let down my daughter, my wife and my friends... But at least I acknowledge that. Is the MOG scum? I guess they are. I'll let God sort it out. Would I trust the MOG? No, not a chance. I'll live with the standards and values I've grown to accept over the years. I'll not be pressured to accept the constraints of a man-made religious structure. Jeff, I feel your pain and frustration. Just try to walk away from it for awhile. God, if there is a loving and all-knowing God, will understand your confusion and frustration. Trust him and your feelings.

As far as I can remember, LEAD and TFI were two separate TWI programs. Outward Bound was a non-TWI secular program that predated both of them. TFI was run by John Somerville, here's a GreaseSpot thread on it.. As to LEAD, I don't know. Didn't do it, didn't know any of the LEADers.

So she's sorta the Rosalee Rivenbark of the Dr. Gene Scott world... That's scary.

Fsking aye... The atheists say.. "what makes us so arrogant to think that we should live forever..." and I agree and I've gotten more peace from that than all the born again second coming live forever in heaven jive that Christanity has taught me. I'm just fine with dying and being dead.

Searching for the truth??? I'm lucky if I can find my glasses...

I think the better question is whether "the law of believing" works or not. I say no. The reason is WWII. The Germans and the Japanese believed, in the Wierwillian sense of the word, that they would win the war. The US, England, and Russia did not believe, again in the Wierwillian sense, that they would win. We know who won and it wasn't the "believers". Now I don't have any complaint with prayer, positive thinking, visualization or any of that. I use it myself. But the way VPW taught it just flat doesn't work. And it give "leadership" a great tool to blame the followers when they are sick, tired or whatever.

"You're gonna have to serve somebody" My take on the matter is that you can be relatively free after you've left home and before you settle down with a mate, a house and a kid. Make those commitments and they stay with you in one form or another, good or bad, for the rest of your life. We are also bound by our economic position in society, our health, and our ethical and moral commitments to our friends and neighbors. Build up your own business to be financially free and you find an even greater web of obligations to employees, suppliers and customers. Grow old and you loose the ability to choose a different career path. I'm sure someone will argue about the last one, but it is certainly true of some career paths I might have chosen. I think it's important to know the types of freedoms that are important to you and protect them. See my sig.

I gotta ask... Who cares? TWI is a banana republic and it's had 2 dictators, VPW and Rosie. It's not gonna change.

Who remembers Trancenet?

Jim's 4th grade teacher... "You're no more of an American than the people of South America or of the rest of North America." You are from the United States".

I worked on staff '80-'81 in the A/V department. My memories might be a little biased as the A/V department seemed to be somewhat favored. We usually weren't questioned about where we were or what we were doing unless we were somehow screwing up some other department's work. Like Grounds because we were digging trenches next to the Weirwille home for cables... But that's another story. Anyway, every year there's a new crop of staffers all enthused and blessed to be on staff and by Christmas, many of them would be angling to find a way home. Their enthusiasm would be proportional to the crappiness of their job and the amount of contact they had with honest old-timers. There were lots of secrets that got whispered to the newfers once they gained the trust of the old-timers. Enough of that. Here's a list of the good and bad things about working on staff back then: Good things: 1. A chance to work with some of the nicest and most talented people in their fields. There were some amazing people on staff and most of them were fairly approachable. 2. A chance to enjoy a beer or two in New Bremen with said nice and talented people. 3. A work environment without a lot of distractions. 4. The feeling (at the time) that you were actually doing something that mattered. Bad things: 1. Micromanagement. Joe Coulter, head of A/V, was one of the worst. He was also quite talented and a nice guy at some strange level that I've not quite figured out even now.. 2. Awful food. I pretty much never ate the noon meal. Between the food and getting called out for bad table manners, I always found something else to do. I can't even stand to feed millet to my bird I hate it so much... 3. Very strange office politics and intrigues. There were pecking orders for everything and they weren't described in the new staffer's handbook. Virtually every action that a staff member might take could lead to some unintended consequences. Power had more to do with seniority and nepotism than competence. HQ was, by far, the worst place I ever worked in that regard. 4. Being poor. I've never been a big spender, but I've always had money to fix my car or go out for dinner. Al of a sudden these sort of things became issues. 5. Having to watch others suffer. This might sound strange, but it did affect me. Watching VPW ream people unmercifully. Seeing the crap that the apprentice corps had to go through. Seeing staffers being assigned to endless and mindless miserable jobs. 6. Ohio and Ohio weather. Didn't much like Ohio and hated the weather. Surprisingly, I didn't mind the hours and workload. I was young and it was something to do. It's not like there was a lot else to do.

Right. Why should believers treat him any better than TWI headquarters treated Mrs. Weirwille?