shazdancer

Shellers, you said I wonder if perhaps he had had a run-in with a shrink or two in his past. Narcissists generally don't get better, because they don't think anything is wrong with them. It is the rest of the world that is at fault.

Incredibly interesting thread, DWBH, thank you. And I thank you for your personal disclosures, while still keeping professional confidences. Your account of confronting Wierwille and being threatened by the dog are just riveting. I also recall Dr. SL and his wonderful wife from my in-rez year '79-'80. He was probably one of the most intelligent Way believers I ever knew when I was in, and both he and his wife were incredibly kind. I am so glad that he was able to use his expertise to help some of those who were abused, and that he was able to mentor people like you into becoming truly competent counselors beyond just reading a book. Yes, I took the "Competent to Counsel" course. Having recently completed my masters in something relatively innocuous (library science), I can't fathom that anyone with an advanced degree (VPW, DEW) could have really believed that a couple of weeks would make us competent to do anything. The crux of Jay Adam's book and the class, if I recall, was to bring people to the absolutes of Scripture and confront them of their sin. (Rereading the intro to the book on GoogleBooks reinforces my impression.) In TWI, that became a super-instant approach, and we were encouraged to use our "spiritual perception and awareness" to confront everyone with The Word, as if the wrongdoers would suddenly smack themselves upside the head and go, "Wow, you're right! I will change my ways!" I think mstar nailed it when he said It usually didn't work, in part because we didn't know what we were doing, and in part because we didn't take the time to build a trusted relationship with the counselees where eventually they could be guided to the place of understanding what had happened to them and how they should proceed. We were supposed to take that sword of the spirit and hack them to pieces with it. Regards, -- Shaz PS: And go easy on yourself, DW. You knew you couldn't break confidence with your counselees, both because it would breach professional ethics and because it might do more harm to the victims to go public. You went right to Vic and to his top people, and got nowhere. Making any kind of public statement would probably have been spun by Vic and you would have been just another "copped out" believer.

I'm thinking that VP was very careful about who he "shared with." Perhaps all the more so since he was caught before, if reports of his being booted from the denomination are true. In the heyday of TWI, there were many women to choose from, and sadly, he chose those most vulnerable at that time. His modus operandi seemed to go like this: Look for a pretty young woman -- under-18 is okay Check her background for vulnerabilities -- if she's Corps, her "From Birth to the Corps" should provide plenty of information. Do something provocative, but defensible, and see how she reacts Give her a privilege that will provide an opportunity for her to be alone with you

;) :D

You wouldn't be bored, nor disgusted, Juan. You'd be laughing your tushie off! I had a WayDaler send me a copy years back, and almost fell off my chair at the intro... Now, the dancers do their best, and I always thought that MP was careful not to give her dancers things that were beyond them. But that is the point when you see Loy trying to dance -- she gave him the simplest moves, and he couldn't manage them. He lumbers around, looking like an ex-jock that got lost in a ballet studio, which is what he was. She has him standing still as much as possible. Just goes to show -- we make it look easy, but that doesn't mean it is easy. The whole thing goes on for too long. Way too long. The writhing demon scenes had me muttering "bitten by devils" under my breath. I could never have sat in the audience with a straight face, not even back then. Dancingly, Shaz PS -- the Bates Dance Festival is back in town here, and I get some vicarious thrills. Those who can no longer do, buy a ticket! :) And my 5'10" son is going to take some classes from them starting tomorrow. Who'd a thunk it?

You're welcome, Excy. And I agree -- there's no one right way to have a relationship. You can't box it into a black or white, right or wrong rulebook. You can draw broad limits, but will never cover every nuance. I was also thinking about a funny-weird incident that happened at Rome City, 1979-80. Wierwille had brought in a country western band to perform for us, non-TWI. I don't even remember how he got a hold of them. Our applause after each song depended upon how "right on" the lyrics were. A mention of God got a big round of applause, and the lead singer said something like, "Oh, now I've got your number," and launched into a sappy, churchy thing that we didn't care for. He couldn't figure us out, but he tried really hard to change the set to what he thought we would like. His stage presence was also kinda Las Vegas, over the top. Later, Wierwille decided to make a teaching moment out of the concert. He asked us what we thought of this group. When we didn't come up with much (we'd learned by then not to give our opinions even when asked), Wierwille kind of sneered that we lacked spiritual perception, that the group was working for the wrong God, and that one guy was even possessed. It was the kind of statement that makes you go, "wow, I didn't even see that, 'Doctor' is really tapped in," when the reality is there is no way to analyze the truth of his statement. Even at the time, I thought he was off the wall, but we had been taught that if we didn't understand something to "hold it in abeyance," and that's what I did. I think walking around claiming to have "spiritual perception" was a great way to show off, and no one could prove you wrong. Wierwille did it, and it sparked everyone to emulate him, though there was a definite nametag pecking order.

Hi, oeno! I thought that might be interesting, though I haven't seen it yet. I hope they show doctors as fallible human beings who are doing what they can, and sometimes doing amazing things. I think its time we not vaunt these guys up to cult status. Medicine does not have as much "scientific precision" as some want us to think. ;) :D If you can't get enough of the operating room, you can always view some actual surgeries at Medline Plus, the National Library of Medicine's portal for the public. Nothing like seeing your procedure before having it done. :o -- Shaz

Remember that phrase from the green card, about what The Class was supposed to do for you... We were supposed to be able to walk into any situation and speak out about it. Wierwille was the example. He loved to step into a situation and tell you what it was really all about, and what it was usually about was devil spirits. And we'd all be so impressed. "Ooh, Doctor is sooo spiritual..."Yet all too many times, he hurt or embarrassed someone to make his point, when he could just as easily have said things in a loving (or at least a private) manner. I think it was drummed into us -- through teaching, example, and lack of exposure to something better -- that we were to behave the same way. "I have no friends when it comes to the truth," remember? I think we still need to shed a lot of that black and white thinking, that way of running roughshod over people in the name of Truth or Justice or The Word. Thoughts? examples?

Now, THAT made me laugh, Geo!

Aw, to hear her cry from her gut, thinking that perhaps she wasn't a good enough Christian to be in the Rapture.... I felt bad for her. I just couldn't do that to someone, even if I could then pop out and say "just kidding."

Hey Paw, Do we/can we have something prominently displayed to direct those who have been abused to get further information or counseling? I know you have explored this kind of thing before, but it just seems to me that the nature of forums makes it difficult to protect someone who is hurting from being hurt further by some, even while being helped by others. When you have one person telling their story to many, and the many have no professional training in counseling (reading "Competent to Counsel" doesn't count!), they can help enormously with "so sorry to hear that" statements, and "I believe you, something similar happened to me" statements. But you can guarantee that a few people will say an unhelpful thing, even if their intent was to help. Part of that is simply not knowing the poster, and being unable to see the person to read nonverbal cues. A forum is a social place. Trying to control responses is like trying to say "I have cancer" at a cocktail party -- invariably, someone is going to say something dumb. More serious couseling would need to be done one-to-one. We have a method of doing one-to-one discussion: personal messaging. Perhaps there is a way to encourage people to move to that method of telling their story when needed, talking it out with someone who is trained (Juan comes to mind). Just ruminating, Shaz

JustThinking, I'm sure why that's why it is so hard to come to grips with our experiences in TWI -- they are so different, even from day to day in the same person, let alone from one person to the next. Add to that, that we were taught to see everything in black and white, God or the devil, good or best, walking by the spirit or spiritually off. Mathematical exactness and all that. When the reality is, life isn't so easily slotted.

Excy, I think even if you had saved the letters, and scanned them in so everyone could see, there would still be a few who would either take issue or say it didn't matter, "Vic-still-taught-me-the-Word" blah blah blah. As one who has been through character assassination (hey, an assassin is a double a-s-s), I can tell you that one of the neatest things was when someone stuck up for me, saying, "I know you, and that person is whacko." Even better still would have been someone calling that person out on their nastiness. If I stick up for myself, I just sound like the nutjob the naysayers are trying to portray me to be. But bottom line, my most important job was to realize that I knew what happened, and that other people's opinions or disinterest didn't change that. -- Shaz And to Dove, I just have to tell ya, G-spot is not a court of law or a newspaper. I can say that OJ murdered Nicole, and I don't have to say allegedly.

There is one lesson from TWI that JL still needs to unlearn: the vaulted assumption that this movement was some apex of human history. Even from a Christian perspective, when I think of how God would judge humanity, by judging the Jews for their understanding the essence of the law (they could not possibly follow all its precepts), and the Gentiles as if they were a law unto themselves, and the Christians as to whether or not they served in Christ's stead (what else is it to take Jesus as Lord?). Clearly, God's standard is not how accurately we interpret every jot and tittle of the Bible, as some of His own never read one. Rather, it is about how people loved. And when it comes to really giving ourselves to one another (love), I think TWI was just another flash in the pan, no more or no less than any other. It is the individual who will be judged. There will be no free pass for belonging to the group that "rightly divided" more than another.

Understood, Cave! :) And Seth, we both hope you're feeling better, soon. As far as brain damage is concerned, I have seen incredibly ill patients get their brains and their lives back. -- Shaz

Cave, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. There is ample evidence that Lyme disease can be acquired with no rash at all, and no initial symptoms, only to become evident later, perhaps after another bite or an event that lowers the immune system. In Seth's case, he said he had symptoms back in childhood, and thinks he may have been bitten again. He reports a rash on the back of his hand, and a "non-bull's eye" rash is actually more common than the classic one with central clearing. He also reports a flurry of symptoms that so far have not been clearly associated with other diseases. He may not have Lyme or co-infections. But if he does, antibiotics will probably help, in the hands of an expert in this disease. But to misdiagnose often leaves the patient with symptom support only, and often no support at all. Sorry, I'm heading to work this morning, but if you want documentation on any of this, feel free to ask. Meantime, I will refer you to this collection of documents, most of them from peer-reviewed medical literature or government sources: http://del.icio.us/lymebrarian Regards, Shaz

Awesome! Do give us a reminder when the online edition comes out. -- Shaz

Yes, Seth, it's very possible that you were undertreated for Lyme previously. And if you've never been treated for babesiosis you could be experiencing symptoms from that. Headache, chills, sweats, and a feeling like a deep breath isn't enough to catch your breath are typical for babesia, which is a protozoa related to malaria, not a bacterium like Lyme, and requires a different test and treatment. Add to that the fact that Lyme is often misdiagnosed and undertreated, and you can be one sick puppy. Babesia is usually treated with a combination of atovaquone (Mepron) and azythromycin (Zithromax). But be sure to tell the doctor you have tinnitus (ringing in the ears), as Zithromax can possibly damage your hearing, and you should be monitored if you already have hearing symptoms and are taking it. I'm not a doctor, blah, blah, insert disclaimer, just a patient who has been there. -- Shaz

Seth! You said your symptoms were: Every inch of my body is in pain or itches I'm chronicly fatigued my ears ring I have labored breathing neuropathy I am extremely irritable On top of that, you are live in an area endemic for Lyme disease. And a neck MRI, why? Do you have a stiff neck? You sound classic for neuroborreliosis (late-stage, neurological Lyme) + babesiosis (a co-infection also carried by deer ticks). That would account for the labored breathing. Do you have chills or night sweats, headache or near-headache? The most comprehensive symptom list I know for Lyme is at: http://www.lymepa.org/Basics2007v1.2Rev.pdf Antibody blood tests for Lyme can help confirm a Lyme diagnosis, but they should NOT rule Lyme out, because you might not be making enough antibodies to test positive. It is a diagnosis based on symptoms. Feel free to IM if you need to know more, Take care, Shaz

Filled up yesterday at $4.05 per. I heard that some machines can't register $4, and will be selling by the half-gallon. Oy!

Two quick thoughts, based on my own personal dealings with a TWI believer who is a narcissist (I think the label fits Wierwille also): The reason we are so easily fooled by a narcissist is that narcissists have to fool themselves. Narcissists sometimes do good things (usually when it doesn't take a lot of effort) in order to convince themselves that they are good, and deserve the perks they demand from others.

Excie, if Jim gave you a copy of his manuscript, and he still had a copy, then the copyright definitely still belongs to his heirs. Do not sell or give away copies without their permission. If he gave you the only copy, with a letter that says, "Here, do what you want with it, it's yours," then it is yours. If he gave you the only copy with no instructions, I would check with an attorney versed in intellectual property law, but my gut says the manuscript belongs to his heirs. Hope that helps, Shaz

Don'tWorry, many thanks for recounting the story of your father hearing tongues with interpretation at a Rye service, and knowing the translations. I had heard that story from someone else back then, and always wondered if it was apocryphal. I was a wide-eyed young high schooler zooming down to Rye Presb. from CT, via HK's wheels in those days. Interesting to know that there was something going on that was more than "loshanta!" Yes, I also got a whoa! out of hearing Gahagan speech. The more things change, the more they remain the same.... Thanks, Shaz

Hayes Gahagan, if memory serves, was a young republican state senator in Maine, and a PFAL grad, who wanted to run for federal office in 1978. TWI got all excited that "one of our grads" was going to be in Washington. They also developed a group called the "Christian Political Alliance" around 1976, later changed to the "Constitutional Political Alliance." It fell in with all the "Christian country" hoopla that went around in TWI in 1976. Where TWI went wrong was to encourage people to vote for him and support his campaign. (I think they also put TWI money and manpower into the campaign, but others can speak better to the truth of that.) One of the few things you can't do as a not-for-profit organization is to endorse a particular candidate. Gahagan has recently come back into politics, see: http://appserver.veoh.com/videos/v141397214WQ7jBfp

http://www.ct.gov/ag/cwp/view.asp?Q=414284&A=2795 History was made this week, not only for the thousands of Lyme disease patients who have been affected by the misdiagnosis and undertreatment of Lyme disease, but for patients everywhere that have suffered at the hands of those arrogant doctors who think that ethics don't apply to them. The jerks who would not allow us to get the treatment we needed, and have it coverd by insurance, are going down in flames.... Thank you, Richard Blumenthal.