shazdancer

Dear Raph, Yeah, of course Solomon, too. Sorry about that. Late night, spotted too many gymnasts... I goofed. Mike, You're saying that "ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:16) refers to the fruit produced in YOU? Doesn't look to me like what that verse is saying. A tree produces its OWN fruit. And VPW's was fairly rotten. shaz

Dear Raphael, Thank you for saying it better than I could. "Holy men of God Spake" does refer to the written Word. None of the guys Mike cites wrote scripture, save David. And I said that VPW was up to his elbows in evil deeds WHILE HE WAS WRITING his books, disqualifying them from the canon. Mike, I don't recall using the word "evil" about you in any of my posts. Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. I don't know you well enough to make such a judgment, so I didn't make it. I have suggested a few things about you based on your words here, and those comments I have no reason to rescind. You said, I ain't no paragon of virtue. Never said I was. Didn't call you evil, either. Nor do I think I hold some kind of "position." I'm just calling it as I see it, based on your words. For you to even begin to equate my opinion with the sexual and emotional abuse Wierwille and his leaders foisted on the faithful would be laughable, if the subject wasn't so serious. Instead, it just makes you look pitiful, and all the more unbelieveable. shaz

Touché, WordWolf. And of course, if any of the work is not canonical, then the whole work should be thrown out of the canon. That would follow the precepts of every group that ever looked at the authenticity of the scripture canon. Even VP said that if one word was out of place, the whole Bible would fall to pieces. I think it follows that if one doctrine in the Advanced Class is incorrect, then the whole thing is necessarily not canon -- Mr. Wierwille may have spoken truth once in awhile, but that doesn't mean he was speaking from revelation. (When I say, "the sky is blue today," I speak the truth, but it isn't God-breathed.) The same holds true for everything he ever said or wrote. He may have spoken the truth at times in each book or class, but if there is only ONE error, then it MUST be thrown out in its entirety AS CANON, because God does not err. Can we learn or be inspired by the writings of VPW? Possibly. But treat them as canon, inerrant? Absolutely not. The other point of canonicity that Mike refuses to face is the integrity of the author. The Bible itself says that scripture was given to "holy men." Not perfect men, but holy ones. I think a great enough cloud of witnesses has come forward to prove that Mr. Wierwille was not a holy man when he wrote any of his books or made any of his classes. He had altruistic moments, perhaps, but he could not be described as a holy man. Therefore, the writings of Victor Paul Wierwille must be thrown out as noncanonical. Regards, shaz

Mike, Let me see if I'm reading you right. VPW makes a literary error, defining a word with the same word ("...to be righteous means that we can stand before God in the righteous-ness with which He clothed us..."), making the definition meaningless, and you don't see a problem with that, because you "look with eyes of thankfulness." Thankful for what? that God gave VPW such incredible revelation that it doesn't matter that he (or He) can't write? VPW made a lot of other errors in PFAL, too, but I suppose the reason they don't matter to you either is that your "eyes of thankfulness" will overlook such "apparent" errors in the face of such incredible revelation given to VPW. VPW made a lot of practical errors, too, in fact, practical errors that ruined many lives. His behavioral errors weren't sins of the moment, but cold, calculated, and sadistic, and he knew that they were evil so he did his best to hide them, justify them, or destroy anyone that would call him on them. As you've hinted at in other posts, I suppose that your "eyes of thankfulness" are willing to overlook VPW's life of sin, even when that sin included you on one occasion, in the face of such incredible revelation. What's a few lives and hearts, when so much great hidden treasure is being revealed? The trouble is, according to the Bible, God revealed his Word to His faithful, not to those walking in the way of the ungodly. And I can't think of a verse where God didn't care about His own because His Word was more important to Him. God knows what His Word is. He doesn't need it written down for Himself. He wrote it down for US, His beloved. The spiritual supercedes the natural, but that does not mean that the things of the natural realm have no value. Trampling the hearts of His faithful in order to get His Word out just isn't God's style. shaz

Amen, JesseJoe. That wasn't a definition, it was an excuse! (BTW, I always hated that definition, because a definition shouldn't use the word it is trying to define in the explanation! Chalk up another one of VP's errors in PFAL. How come I saw that when I was 15, and Mike still can't see it?) Regards, shaz

Thanks, SirGuess, your list of "Problems" said it very succinctly, and your wordplay was a lot of fun! Regards, shaz

Good point, nolongerlurking. When we are talking about asocial (sociopathic) personality or narcissistic personality, we are talking about Personality Disorders, NOT mental illnesses. A personality disorder, according to those in the mental health field, is an ingrained pattern of behaviors. People who have it may be genetically predisposed to it, the jury is still out on that one. The behavior patterns and thought processes of the disorder are believed to be formed during the early years of life, possibly due to faulty parenting. Personality disorders are very difficult to treat, mainly because the disordered person thinks nothing is wrong with him and doesn't want to change, it is everyone ELSE who is wrong, in his eyes. It is also hard to diagnose, as PD patients are such good liars. Therapists usually focus on changing the behaviors of the PD person who seeks help in a time of crisis, but the tendency is to devalue the therapist and return to previous patterns once the crisis has past. I had never intended to equate Personality Disorders with other problems such as depression, OCD, ADHD, neuroses, or even schizophrenia, or the like. PD's are a whole 'nother ball game. Thanks for clarifying, and sorry that we didn't mention that sooner. Regards, shaz

So here's my question: Given that we see narcissism/sociopathy traits in VPW's life, pretend for a moment that he is still alive. How should we treat him? Should we try to empathize? Should we rebuke him (or M&A him) and warn others? Should we work with him quietly behind the scenes and let him go on preaching and teaching? Should we cast out devil spirits? Was just wondering, in case I meet another disordered personality some day... Regards, shaz

Aww, Zix, there ya go spoiling all the fun! I was gonna ask you your sign next... ;)--> shaz

My preschool-aged students always seem to get more hyper the day or two before full. And wow, my gymnastics classes were nuts last night, between St. Patty's Day, the warmer weather, and the moon -- lunacy! :)--> shaz

Aw, WordWolf, it's easy to explain away the apparent errors in PFAL. You just start with the premise that VPW can't be wrong, and take years to try and warp your understanding of his words around into something that fits.... Regards, shaz

Hi Oldiesman! I will vouch for the quote that Rafael gives on the "faith blasters" section of RTHST. I also had obtained a copy of Stiles' book, compared it to my 1972 version of the Holy Spirit book, and saw the plagiarism in black and white. I cannot confirm Juedes' claim of 70% plagiarism, but plagiarism there was, for sure! And yes, I too would say that particular plagiarism stuck out to me because VPW never used that vocabulary. Mike would have us excuse VPW quoting Stiles in that passage without credit. He thinks they are both quoting GOD who gave the revelation to both of them to write that. (If I am misrepresenting Mike's view, he can feel free to clarify.) I would counter that revelation does not work like that, according to what VPW taught in PFAL. According to Mr. Wierwille, "God moved...then men spoke, using their own vocabularies...." If so, then two different men, inspired by God, would definitely NOT use the same word-for-word paragraph in their inspired writings. Especially so when that paragraph sounds nothing like the vocabulary of the speaker. Regards, shaz

What finally did it for me (after a dozen years of complete dedication, culminating in two years of Recognized Family Corps VI training): 1.) Being told secondhand that we were suddenly being "assigned" to move across the country, which would hinder my parents' contact with their first grandchild. I was not allowed to speak with VPW to discuss this "assignment" (Recognized weren't supposed to be assigned anywhere!) 2.) The re-assignment later that year of the LC that we were moved to be with in the first place! Maybe our assignment wasn't revelation after all... 3.) Being asked by a leader to get "evaluated" and fill out a "Redeem the Time" sheet, even though that person had never met me. I politely but firmly declined, said I was Recognized and not subject to evaluation. Leader said, "VPW had never wanted a Recognized program" 4.) Being told by a BC that I should leave my children with an abusive alcoholic and drive out of state because VPW had called an emergency meeting. BC cited Ezra 10, when the people came when the man of God called, even in the rain. Then I read the record -- when the meeting went on a long time, the people said, "Hey, it's raining! and this is gonna take a long time. Settle it with our rulers, and let us know." I very firmly declined to go 5.) Wrote a thoughtful reply to VPW when he asked in a form letter to those Corps that weren't at Corps Week, "Where have I failed you?" Received a one-sentence answer scrawled at the top of my letter that I was "bitter" Even though TWI was more than happy to have me jump through hoops for them, all talk about the "Corps household" and "love of the saints" was nil when I had need. And that included VPW. That was a long time ago in a land far away from where I am now. The beginning of the end for me was in 1980, and I was out by '84. So lousy people skills weren't just the realm of TWI-II! Regards, shaz

Absolutely, ex, Mr. Wierwille didn't "have a problem in one area of his life," he IGNORED what he was teaching because it didn't "fit like a hand in a glove" (or a Trojan on a ...!) with what he wanted to do, which was prey on young women. Sexual predation WAS his life. This wasn't a "mistake," this was cold and calculated, involved massive amounts of time and planning, and the cooperation of others to find women and join him on his power exploits. Because that's what they were -- not "relationships" (makes me sick), but a desparate need for power from one who felt powerless. Wierwille taught "Power for Abindant Living," yet his actions say that he needed to dominate others in order to feel good. And who did he go after? The loving and tenderhearted believers whose boundaries were often muddied by prior abuse, who were trying to reconcile what Wierwille had taught them with what he was doing to them. Ex, if anyone put your resumé and the "Doc's" up on a bulletin board, and said point to the Christian, you would win hands down. Maybe some of us first heard about Godly things from TWI. If we gleaned any good from them, then we should be thanking God that we could glean some good from so much evil. I for one could never be thankful that my knowledge was gained at the expense of so many souls. I would've rather learned some other Way. Regards, shaz

Excuse the slight derailment... ...but StayedTooLong, you said something about "some people like to abuse and some like to be abused." (I hear a song coming on.) VPW used to preach (in CF&S?) about abuse victims having a spirit of masochism. It caused many in TWI to write off those who were being abused as "wanting it." Although I can theoretically conceive of such a thing, I have never talked to any abuse victim who wanted to be abused. They always wanted the abuse to stop. I just wanted to explode that TWI myth. As to why people are still "in," I know I felt for a time that I would try to "save" the organization by being an example of a good believer and good Corps. However, I only thought I was standing against overly religious leaders. I had no idea of the extent of the corruption at the Root level. I agree -- had the Internet been around 20 years ago, the numbers of innies would have died off that much sooner. Regards, shaz

Mike, You said, Mike, you truly are a disciple of the Ol' Vic, in every way. Thank you for making that abundantly clear. You just keep on researching, dude, it will keep you away from the rest of us. "Ever learning, and never able to the knowledge of the truth." shaz

Hate to break it to you, but... Mike, We've talked about VPW and his views on cancer before. He said people with cancer were possessed. Not oppressed, and not "attacking a skin cell" but not the mind. Those were his views, not mine. He was wrong about so many things. Many of those wrong things were included in a class called Power for Abundant Living. Much of that has already been covered in this thread. He believed many other wrong things that were manifested in the way he lived his life and interacted with others. "By their fruits ye shall know them." Booze to excess, adultery, rages, chauvinism. Did you ever stop to think that, while he was bragging that he did nothing but study the Word nonstop for so many years, he was neglecting his wife and children? Apparently, he didn't much believe in the Book he was teaching. I never saw an example in the Bible of God showering an abundance of revelation on the ungodly. Then I look at how you have conducted yourself. Whining one minute, attacking posters the next. If you insult us, that's okay; but if someone else calls you WRONG, you are getting picked on, according to you. You are also disrespectful of the boundaries of one or two of the women posters here. Yup, sounds a lot like the guy you admire. Please don't bother to e-mail me. I will not respond. I have no interest in the gospel you preach. It does not result in a life that I would want to live. shaz

Or how about... Best wishes, to both of you! shaz

Mike, you assume an awful lot about us Gsers. I did confront VPW, very politely, about his celebrity status. Although I was never molested (having a NYer hubby with tattoos might've helped me there!), he definitely treated me like "just a woman" on more than one occasion. Just like VPW does to another woman at the beginning of the "lost last teaching" you have so reverently transcribed for us. I also stood up to "leadership," long before there was an Internet. Sometimes it was for myself, sometimes it was for my fellow believer. I didn't know anyone who had been sexually violated (at least they didn't tell me) or I'd have been a lot more vocal, even with my pro-TWI mindset at the time. Perhaps you think that Leonard and Stiles and Wierwille were all inspired by God, hence the apparent plagiarisms -- they all got the words from God. Sorry, I don't buy it, having seen with my own eyes word-for-word plagiarism where other words would have been more suitable. Anyway, we were taught in PFAL (which you laud so highly) that God would reveal His Word to men, and they would write it down using their own vocabularies. Therefore, a word-for-word copy by different men should not occur if there is truly revelation from God. VPW and I have different ideas about what "the joy of serving" is. He seems to think it is about teaching people the precepts of PFAL, and thereby meeting people's "needs." I think it is about meeting their needs (sick, poor, downtrodden) with what they NEED (healthcare, food, compassion), and being an open book about what I believe. Kinda like that guy Jesus. It brings me joy -- not the adrenaline rush of preaching at people (which is occasionally necessary also), but the joy of secretly helping someone else's life get better. Regards, shaz

Little Drummer Boy (I'm such a mush when I hear it **sniff**) Handel's "Messiah," esp. the Hallelujah Chorus Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel But my favorite these days is a song by John Gorka called "Christmas Bells," lyrics by Longfellow: "I heard the bells on Christmas Day Their old familiar carols play Wild and sweet the words repeat Of 'Peace on earth, good will to men.'"

Ginger -- you must mean Ward Pound Ridge Reservation in Pound Ridge, near Bedford, NY. Big place, very pretty, and not far from me. Once a New Yawkuh, always a NY-er. I spent my younger childhood in Tarrytown in Westchester County, and 2 of my kids are in college in Rochester, but NYC IS NY. After one summer of commuting down there for dance classes, I wound up there for 5 years for college (and College WOW) with Plotinus, ChuckR and the other 2 compatriots. Got married there, too, the first time. ! Loved NYC, still visit from time to time, but wouldn't raise kids there. Washington Square Park is still the place to "hear of some new thing," not all of it legal! Regards, shaz

Hi, Petrock! I want to ask you something. I set up a private thread. Go to "My Spot" at the top of the screen and click on "private topics." Regards, shaz

Thanks, Microbe! I got your message. shaz

Hi, Microbe! I sent you an invitation to a private forum. Just click on the "My Spot" link at the top of the screen, then click on the "Private Posts" tab. Regards, shaz

Looking for someone who could give me information about a Way guy who lived there circa 1985. shaz