shazdancer

Dear chinny, You said: Let's please remember where this quote is, and get it out every time someone says "that picture (or book, or movie, or song, or whathaveyou) has devil spirits in it." I can imagine that a few people might go chasing after witchcraft after having read HP. I can imagine that. But I KNOW people that justify their evil based on what they read in the Bible. Do devil spirits jump out of the pages of the NT and bite people? Thanks, chinny. Shaz

Mike, No, you get noticed because of the error of your "data," and the lack of integrity in your presentation. Shaz

"Good, decent men?" Like who, VP? Wierwille was up to some pretty strange antics way before the early 80's. Ask Plotinus about the time Wierwille called him possessed, when he wasn't. Ask Jim Doop and Steve Heefner about how loving he was. Take a look at early versions of the Christian Family and Sex class. Ask me about his misogyny. Ask his victims about sexual improprieties, and assault. Sorry, but I will not let you rewrite history, and call it the "devils [sic] need for a takedown." The devil, if you will, was already having a mighty fine time at The Way. Shaz

Mike, You said: They weren't "corrupting factors," Mike. They were corrupt LEADERS, including Victor Wierwille. You know, the people who taught this supposed "massive amount of genuine Word." Guess they didn't believe it much. "Unusually high concentration?" Nah, it was run-of-the-mill corruption. We're reading about it now every day in the Catholic and other churches, and in local, state, and federal governments. Leaders getting off on the power and adulation that comes with being in the top position. Narcissists with lust problems looking for jobs that will both justify their sorry existence, and give them opportunity to fulfill their perversions. Shaz

Did Dorothy cover boogers in her book? The best "fix yourself" moment that was ever done to me came one time when I had a piece of broccoli (dark green, yum) stuck between my teeth after lunch. An adult student friend of mine (Xian, non-TWI) quietly brought me a mirror and told me. Classy, and caring, I thought. I think I'd bring your co-worker (or boss, if I was on talking terms) a tissue! Regards, Shaz

Oy, vickles, you weren't the only one! My bf reminded me my son should get something for his father for Father's day before he came for his visit. If I'd thought for a sec, I'd have remembered that FD is next week, but no, I rushed my kid to the drugstore to get something for his dad, getting back 5 minutes late for visitation, only to be reminded that we were a week early! Oh well, early Alzheimer's settin' in... At least it gets me off the hook for next Sunday, when we will be out of town, lol. Regards, Shaz

Oh, Mike, you don't really think he was talking about the PFAL BOOK when he said, "I didn't write the book," do you? And that he was hinting that the texts we are going to "find" were HIS? Mike, dude, you gotta get out more. I was in on Corps meetings when he said, "someday we'll find a text," and it was always about some minor detail of Biblical accuracy. (I'd agree with your "region leader friend" on that one.) And he'd say, "I didn't write the book" right after quoting a passage in the KJV that proved the point he was making. Mike, you gave me a chuckle today on that one. Thanks for the laugh. Now, go stake your life on something important. shaz

Goey, I think the point in using VP's writings to discredit Mike's assertions is that he thinks that Wierwille wrote that precisely. I don't. Having seen a few of Mr. Wierwille's first drafts, I know that his editors had a lot to do with making VP look good in print. Perhaps someone from Word Processing in those days could speak more about that.... Then we might be talking about God-breathed editors! --> Oy! Regards, Shaz

Hi Steve, Okay, so amend my paraphrase to read "will" instead of "would." I caught that myself just after I sent it, but didn't think it made a difference in my point, so I didn't fix it. Mike, I just wish you could read it in the original. Oh wait, you are reading it in the original. I just wish you could read! The saddest part of it is, you are staking your life on this. Shaz

Mike, the above is an obvious ellipsis. The missing words, when re-supplied, would make the sentence read, "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said would necessarily be God-breathed, nor what Luther said would be necessarily God-breathed," etc. Sorry, but if you are going to infer that some of VPW's writings are God-breathed, then you are going to have to accord the same respect to these other men. Or "your whole Bible would fall to pieces!" So sorry if I don't bring this to light with the proper amount of humility and love for VPW that you have. Sheesh, you feel a serial sexual abuser's words should be considered with diligence, but mine just aren't up to snuff. LOL, somehow, I'm not too upset.... Shaz

Any chance he'll start examining the works of Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, and Roberts for God-breathed content since, according to Mike's interpretation of PFAL page 83, Wierwille said they are in the same category as his writings? Nah. 'Course, we could discuss it with him if this were a discussion board. Hey, wait a minute... Regards, Shaz

Well then, Mike, you better start getting out the works of Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Graham, and Roberts, and lauding them to the skies as much as Wierwille, because according to your logic, some of the time THEY had God-breathed writings, too. And if that be the case, just who is the arbiter of what should be considered revelation, and what should be thrown out? Shaz

...and since you were the one who once accused me of saying something I didn't say, I think you are the wrong one to worry about a lack of thoroughness. Occasional mistakes can easily be remedied by restating your position, Mike, not by painting us with some kind of "Jane, you ignorant sl**" brush. In fact, restating your position if you feel we have misunderstood you would sure save a lot of keystrokes spent criticizing our imprecision. Shaz

Dear exy, I'm not sorry, I feel the same way you do. And I like your pic... Mike, So what? You talk like none of us knew that VPW saw a physical and spiritual side to everything. Shoot -- we all saw life that way in TWI. Your big news is no news. shaz

Agreed, Wordwolf. Mike's listing of his "credentials" could be read so many different ways that his list doesn't mean much, as written. Moving on, but taking note that Mike still can't write a simple answer to a simple question... shaz

Mike, You infringed on a copyright by posting most of this teaching without permission. TWI is a business, and you prevent them from selling this tape by giving it away. It matters not that you did it for some higher cause. It matters not if VPW stole from Kenyon for some higher, "God-breathed" cause. It still breaks the laws of this country. I hope the risk is worth it to you. You also said: I remember hearing that "God covers" a lot during my TWI years, because I doubted its veracity even then. God didn't protect Mr. Wierwille so He could get the "Word that hasn't been known since the first century" out. Wierwille and his cronies protected him, discrediting everyone who spoke out, and isolating them from each other by M&A so they couldn't talk to each other. Wierwille also developed a whole network of yes-men to march in lockstep with anything he said, and shamed those who refused to kiss his tush. Had the Internet been around then (as it is now with Martindale), VPW wouldn't have stood a chance. You said: Exaggerated??? How many would it take for you to be appalled? How many did it take for God?You assertion that God would forget His own requirement for leadership (thanks alfakat) in order to get His Word into print just makes me ill. Keeping quiet was better than putting a stop to it? (Thanks Pirate!) If there was a god behind VPW not being brought to justice in his lifetime, it was the wrong one. shaz

Mike, I go away from this thread for a few days, and LOOK what you've done with it! You really let your scholarship wander all over the place. I'm going to have to clean you up... You said, talking to Goey: What your "vague memory" is recalling is that there were some early church fathers that thought that JESUS had "invented" the word agape to coin something that had never existed before; however, that has long since been proven to be incorrect, as that word appears in other literature of the period, as well as the LXX. Wow, I never rely on your vague memories as proof of anything! Goey, What's he gonna do with that "data?" Ignore it, apparently. You didn't have enough agape in your heart when you approached the topic. Tsk, tsk. shaz

Dear Paw, No complaints here. I think you do an awesome job with a lot of opinionated people. I know it's gotta be a major pain at times. I hope at other times it is worth it! Regards, shaz

Mike, on Wierwille's plagiarism So now GOD'S a plagiarist! shaz

Mike, Regarding Wierwille's plagiarism: Did he give away the PFAL book, or sell it? Your argument that Wierwille did it for a higher cause does not hold up. Since he sold it, the laws of copyright definitely apply. Stiles wrote something to that effect that he was unhappy with others stealing his work, in the beginning of one of the later editions of his book, which I read. And as I recall, TWI got into a little copyright trouble with printing the lyrics to some of the songs in the Sing Along the Way book, even though TWI gave that book away. In later editions, some songs didn't appear, and others had the copyright information attached, as they had to get permission to use it. "I will teach you the Word like it has not been known since the first century, if you will sell it to others...." shaz

Dear Oakspear, You beat me to the punchline, that Mike would distrust those translators who put their lives on the line for the accurate transcription and translation of the Bible, but would have us believe that a plagiaristic, drunken, sexual predator is to be trusted to accurately impart God's Word. Nicely said. Dear Exy, Sounds like you're starting to see why Mike isn't my favorite cup of tea. It isn't the illogic of his doctrines, it is the inhumanity of his point of view. Dizzydog, It's a forum. Say what you want, back off when you want. Your words are well thought out, and are welcome, at least by me. Mike, Don't start getting all excited that I am going to afford you lots of opportunity to filibuster your ideas, or pick apart the minutiae of what I am saying. I just didn't want your attempt at scholarship to stand unchallenged, making it appear as if we all agreed with you. Dizzydog certainly didn't seem to me like a "conversation constrictor," or to exhibit "cowardice," as you said. He, like the rest of us, just gets tired of trying to talk to you. Your post to him smacks of the things you whine that we say to you. You like to dish it out, but you have trouble taking it.... You said But you regard a second-rate, unscholarly, immoral preacher as the highest authority, and a faithful purveyor of what you claim God revealed to him. Not to mention that we are talking about HUNDREDS of world-respected scholars over the centuries, when we talk about the translation of the Bible into modern English. I stand by what I said about most of the textual variations being minor. A prepositional phrase deleted here, a spelling error there. Most are easily resolved by using the techniques of lower criticism. Most do not change history or doctrine. Are there more glaring differences in the texts at times? Certainly, but they are rare. I have read that the Bible stands out from other ancient texts by how few changes there are. So I think that to imply that the original is lost to us is incorrect. A few details may be lost, but the original is incredibly intact. You said I posted before what I thought about your assertion that God spoke a little bit to Stiles, then spoke the same thing to Wierwille and then some. (Don't remember what I said before? It's okay, I won't make you go look it up, I can paraphrase my own words!) Revelation, according to PFAL, doesn't work word-for-word, but thought-for-thought. The authors used their own vocabulary, according to Wierwille. So then how could Wierwille come up with the exact same words as Stiles, and that on a minor point, using a phrase ("faith blasters") that I never heard him or anyone else (besides Stiles) use anywhere but in RTHST? Sadly, I think that your "spiritual mastery" of PFAL lends itself to a denial of the validity and importance of emotions, common sense, and humanity. At least, those are the traits that seem to me to be missing in you as you post. Perhaps your lost empathy predated your PFAL search. I would rather follow the Man from Galilee whose very bowels moved for people, as revealed in those imperfect fragments, than revel in having found the perfect Will of God, making me more enlightened than the sniveling masses. Life is too short not to live it. Shaz

Mike, You said and The "ancient fragments" are NOT at great variance. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the time, the text variations are simple disagreements in spelling or grammar. I think you are well-read enough to know that, so I think it is dishonest of you to portray the texts we have as badly flawed. You give a passing nod to the Masorah of the Old Testament, but I have never heard you do anything but dismiss the OT along with the NT as being too far removed from the originals to be credible. And who is to say that the workmen who labored to make these critical Greek texts were not inspired by God? You want to make the case that VPW was allowed by God to steal the words of other men to include in His work, but you deny that anyone working in the sixteenth century, or the nineteenth, could have the same benefit of divine intervention when handling Holy Writ. They were all church corrupt, according to you. None were able to rise above their denomination to feel responsible to God to handle His Word with honesty. We Wayfers have more knowledge of the true Word of God than anyone else since Pentecost, according to you. How arrogant to claim that we know more than those who made it their life's work (and sometimes were killed for it) to understand scripture in the original languages and earliest translations, and felt a duty to God to not "handle the word of God deceitfully." If we are to believe you, then the only credible scriptures are those quoted by Wierwille in his writings. According to you, an abundance of amazing writings would be relegated to the shelf of "Interesting for Beginners, but Questionable." shaz

Aw, suz et al, I was soooo sorry not to be there! My love to whole bunches of youse guys. You all look great! And I don't look like I sound, shaz

Mr. Wierwille said: What a deluded man.

Mike, You said this about the spirit of lust: Guess you don't know much about women! And I guess you also don't know very much about sexually abusive men, either! Your post was so absurd, I had to laugh out loud. And you want to be left alone to post this stuff as doctrine, unchallenged? Guess again. shaz