shazdancer

So we now have a "spiritual" reason why VPW's plagiarism is so wrong. If VPW stole words and concepts from someone from his generation (Stiles and Leonard), then he cannot be an apostle by his own definition, since an apostle is supposed to "bring new light to his generation. It may be old light, but it is new to that generation." Did VPW SAY he was an apostle? I dunno, but he sure hinted at it. And in a private conversation with me, he said he had gift ministrieS. Let's see, he called himself The Teacher -- that's one. Hmm, prophet? Nah. Evangelist? Not exactly his area of concentration. Pastor? Hardly! Unless you think that sexual ministrations are therapeutic. Having heard from a few that he "ministered" to, I would say NOT! That leaves us with apostle. And Wierwille didn't fit his own definition, because he taught OLD light. Out of his own mouth he condemns himself. Regards, Shaz

Dear Oldies, Wierwille DID teach that "the gift is the God-given ability." The gift, in his view, was holy spirit, the latent ability. The manifestation was the operation of that gift in 9 different ways. I never thought VPW taught that very clearly. No wonder -- the idea wasn't his! Regards, Shaz

"The gift is the God-given ability..." Wierwille, word for word. But Mike would say it is GOD word for word. Yeah, right, like God would choose a power-hungry sexual predator to give His Word to. "I will teach you the word like it has not been known since the first century, if you will sell it and sue anyone who attempts to give it to others...." The Bible says that God gives his word to holy men, Mike. Anther piece of "data" you have chosen to ignore. Shaz

Dear LuckyGirl, I think that is about the lowest thing anybody could say to a woman. What a sick bunch, and they thought they were the pinnacle of Christianity. They had no idea what Christ was all about. Regards, Shaz

Mike, EVERY book of VPW's has a copyright date on it, and a Library of Congress catalogue number. The only reason to go through such a process is to legally protect your writings from plagiarism. So yes, Wierwille was definitely concerned about others stealing HIS works, but it didn't stop him from stealing from others. I have seen books by other Christian authors that have NO copyright restrictions on them, but VPW's works do not fall in that category. YOU may think that copying and disseminating "God's" words without crediting the authors is okay, but VPW cetainly didn't. I have said this to you before on another thread, but you sort of forgot that little piece of "data." VPW offered the works of others in The Way bookstore, but he conveniently left out those specific works he stole from. I never saw a copy of Stiles little book on the gifts of the spirit until I found one at a used book sale a couple of years ago. (BTW, in the beginning of that book, the author decried plagiarism of his work.) Wierwille never offered B.G. Leonard's work in The Way bookstore as far as I know, and I go back to 1971. Why did he offer some of the works of Kenyon, Bullinger, etc.? I would guess that he simply wanted to flesh out his bookstore and earn more profit! When he had written more of his own stuff, I noticed the works of others just sort of dried up. Shaz

Hi, Keith, and welcome to da 'Spot. I agree with you and Radar on this one. They should have felt compelled to have figured something out for Mrs. Wierwille years ago, or at the very least, taken care of her out of their own pockets. Seeing as she is "of the household" and all. And seeing that they would have never had the lifestyle that they have now without her help financially and personally. And isn't it convenient that they now invoke their 501©(3) status, when they seem to have overlooked it when they wanted Staff to make their beds and do their laundry.... Regards, Shaz

Hi everybody, Here is the portion of JP's letter concerning his mother's health: I took this to mean that JP had wanted his mom to receive better care while she was at HQ (24-hour nursing care, medications), but is now glad to have her out of there so she can get adequate care. He says he is unsure as to why she had not received the proper medications while she was at HQ. (Was the BOD clueless of what her illness was? Were they relying on prayer and ministering to heal her, and so did not administer medications? Was Mrs. W refusing to take them?) Since the Wierwille children were not allowed on grounds, it must have been very difficult to get information on what was being done for their mother's medical care, let alone observe that care being given. In a true Christian situation, one would think that the BOD would have had roundtable discussions with the Wierwille family as to what would be the best course of action on their mother's behalf, with the final say going to the sibling with power of attorney. Then the BOD would have been happy to have the children come and go from the family home, and see how well TWI was caring for their mother. It seemed to me that the Wierwille children were trying to let their mother stay in her home (don't most people want their sunset years to be in familiar surroundings?), while keeping in contact with her the best they could (seeing her off grounds, as THEY were not allowed in their family home!). It is very difficult to keep track of her medical condition this way. Sounds to me like TWI had all the information and resources available, but did not do enough, while the children did the best they could with the information they had. So BOD, how does it feel to make your own beds and vacuum your own floors, seeing as how you now know that you shouldn't have Staff assigned to do it? Dancingly, Shaz

I sold some TWI books a couple of years ago. Got some interesting responses from people. Most were just ex-Way offshooters who needed replacement copies or books for their kids or newbies. Another guy was amassing a collection, trying to start the biggest Biblical research library on the continent. (Hmm, could be kinda hard to buy ancient manuscripts on eBay!) Since most all of my auctions contained a phrase like, "Wierwille -- visionary or charlatan? Read and decide for yourself," I got one email from a non-bidder that asked, "Why are you so angry?" So I told her I was not angry, but sad about what had happened in TWI. Strangely, she never wrote back.... ;)--> If you want to avoid non-payers, just include a time limit on payment, and the promise to leave negative feedback on non-payers. Then offer the book to the next highest bidder on the bid history. (eBay now has a place for the seller to do this on their My EBay page.) I had no big problems with my auctions, and most everyone was polite. I DID get a warning from eBay, though, for mislabeling an auction, which I didn't do. WayGB, perhaps? Regards, Shaz

Dear Dot, Yeah, some people just love to be groupies with anyone with power. Gives them power by association. Dear Raf, I brought Schwaigers' "Does This Ring a Bell?" thread back to page one, with a couple of additions to the red flags list. Please insert the word "Mike" in place of Wierwille. That is what I meant. Regards, Shaz

Hey, everyone, Whoa, 15 pages, must be a hot topic, ya think? Just a few reminiscences from taking that class... -- the first time I took CFS, it seemed like every time a picture of the black couple came on, Wierwille would make a remark, like "Isn't that WONderful? Isn't she beYOOtiful?" etc. It reminded me of his comments in "The Way Living In Love" where he said he was a bigot for many years following his brother's death, because he was killed by a black man. Over-compensation, perhaps? In later screenings, the comments were mostly edited out. I guess I wasn't the only one who noticed. -- the slang terms. There were some I'd never heard of, and I lived in NYC. I was married to a former Navy man, and there were some HE'd never heard of. Many I've forgotten, having never heard them since. VP's assertion that we needed to hear them so we wouldn't flinch if they were used by a couple in counseling was just so much bunk it is pitiful. Gee, I'll remember this list just in case I counsel trailor trash, Vic, thanks. Because I couldn't possibly figure out what they were talking about without this list. Yeah, if VPW had wanted to desensitize us with this list, it certainly wasn't for counseling purposes -- except when HE was doing the "counseling." -- Was it Plots who said that it seemed like Wierwille was just sharing his personal sexual preferences as if that is what every man wants? Agreed, and ick! -- At the time, I was engaged to be married. My intended and I were worried that we were outside of God's will, and really listened to hear from Vic about what the Bible had to say about sex outside of marriage. (Somehow, I just couldn't look it up for myself?!) He said nothing, until the staged "question and answer" segment, where someone in his studio audience asked about it. I cannot recall the exact quote, but Vic said that the Word just wasn't specific about that. Huh? Looking back now, how convenient... Personal note to Dot and Raf -- do you believe me now? Mike, Disgusting. But not surprising. Dear Ginger, Glad you saw Mike's posts here. I had heard something similar in a couple of Mike's earliest posts. Raf had heard more in a private email from Mike. I would suggest to you that sometimes it is better not to be polite to people bearing hurtful thoughts and opinions, as it makes it sound like the abuse is not a big deal. I have heard you be firm with others when you thought they were overstepping personal boundaries. (At least, I thought you were firm -- sometimes, your posts are so heavy on the jargon and light on the facts you are addressing that I have trouble understanding your point.) Likewise, I see no problem in being firm about what we disagree with in Mike's posts. It probably shouldn't lapse into personal attacks, but I think it is understandable at times. And the man who has been first to apologize for any lapse has always been Raf, while the last has always been Mike. That speaks volumes to me. Regards, Shaz PS to Paw -- thanks.

Gawd, exy, can you imagine us now, at our age and experience, seeing "Uncle" Harry trying something like that on some innocent 20-year-old? I think he'd be carrying home his 'nads in a box by the time we got through with him! How'd THAT be for a CF&S lesson? Regards, Shaz

Yay, uponhigh, glad it's not too serious, just a pain in the a**! Try to take just enough of the painkillers to be able to function. Chances are, you will feel it when you go to work out, and you will probably feel weaker on that leg. You won't be numb! Listen to what your body is telling you. Keep it warm (and bandaged, if possible) when you are working out, then ice when you are done. I agree with Zshot, we heal slower than we did when we were 16, so be careful, there will be other races in your future if you pay attention now. Consider going to a physical therapist with good equipment and a knowledge of the sports you do. They are not afraid to push you if you want to be pushed! Regards, Shaz

Wow, uponhigh, the "BIG pop" you describe makes me even wonder if you could have sprained your hip -- very unusual but possible. (In a sprain, the joint pops out and back in again, causing mild to severe damage to surrounding muscles, tendons, and/or ligaments.) Absolutely check with a doc, he may even want to x-ray it to be sure you didn't hairline fracture the femur. RICE is fine for the discomfort, and you can take aspirin or ibuprofen for the pain, if you can take aspirin safely. You can probably try stretching it out, GENTLY, but warm it up first, either by movement or a hot bath, then ice it down again afterward like it was a new injury. I am not a doctor (so go see someone who is), so you shouldn't take my advice as gospel. Let us know what happens! Regards, Shaz

Hi Tom, That's an urban legend story, but it gets better. "Batman" is a city councilman in real life. He does recover from his heart attack, and he begs the paramedics (who took care of him and rescued his, um, friend) to please "keep it between us, okay?" All was well, until he pops into the local diner for morning coffee. All the regular locals are there, but nobody says anything. But finally, they start humming, "nananana-nananana-nanananana...Batman!" ;)--> Shaz

Mike, I find it arrogant on your part to think you can run your little show on someone else's website. Don't tell me where I can or cannot post, as that is Paw's job, not yours. Don't tell us how to post on your threads, either, because we will post as we see fit. Too bad if it doesn't fit with your agenda. In the interest of being read, I have responded to your last "hidden post" from this thread on your new thread. In my own way. Shaz

Dear Oak, Thanks for your puppy ingestion post. (!) That's exactly what I was getting at concerning Mike's explanations of VPW's plagiarism. If one excuse is debunked, move blithely on to the next. And never admit VP's error was an error, to paraphrase Rafael. Here's one of my favorite Mike rationalizations of VP's plagiarism: So when you see those words "by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille" under a title, it doesn't MEAN "by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille," according to Mike it sometimes means "stolen by Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille, because God said steal it." And of course, Oral Roberts never "put it all together" or "moved it all over the world?" but VP was just as happy to use his red thread teaching without acknowledgement.... Regards, Shaz

Dear Ginger, Like Raf, there's just some things about your stance that I don't understand. Most of us have openly admitted that we are here to talk about what was wrong with The Way International, including its founder. We have expounded at length about how Victor Paul Wierwille was a plagiarist and a sexual predator, among other things. Many of us hope that by sharing and discussing these things, we can help others avoid the junk that we put up with in The Way. I think it is a given that anyone coming here to laud PFAL to the skies is going to receive strong argument. Along comes Mike to tell us (and taking Lord knows how long to tell us) that Wierwille's plagiarism was a good thing, and that his sexual deviancy should be overlooked because of the greater good of having given us PFAL, and that life would be as wonderful as it was when we were teenagers if we would only believe that Wierwille was God's messenger for this age. Mike "outed" one poster here who had had some e-mail contact with him in the past. She vehemently disagrees with how he characterized that relationship. Mike's statements about women leave much to be desired, including a statement made to Rafael in private that had Raf just about blowing a gasket. Mike has told Exy, in so many words, that she should just get over it so she could go on with the great blessings that VPW bestowed upon us. He insulted most all of the rest of us in various ways. His logic in presenting his case for PFAL is often out to lunch as well. You are surprised that we are not more polite? When I am not on GS, I think very little about what I say here. I have a life. But when I am here, knowing what I know about Wierwille, The Way, and Power for Abundant Living, I would hate to see posts such as Mike's remain on the Internet without comment. If his detractors are occasionally insulting, well, Mike knew it was like that here before he ever made a post, and his own remarks have been far from courteous. If Wierwille could walk into your living room today, would you be sweet to him? Regards, Shaz

So let's see, either VPW sinned when he took the words of others to put into his books (without their consent and without acknowledgement), and we should overlook the sin because he was such a great MOG; or he refrained from footnoting on purpose, to spare us from looking up the references and getting off track in our thinking, and we should thank him for sparing us such pain. What a guy, that VP! OR he wanted to get those books into print, and didn't think a bunch of midwestern hayseeds and babyboomer kids would know that he plagiarized. Later on, when he was more concerned about being recognized in the academic community, (and after he already got into trouble with plagiarizing the lyrics in the song book), he footnoted extensively, and somehow we didn't all get "off the Word" by looking up any of the texts he cited (if we looked them up at all). Sheesh, Mike, we weren't all a bunch of morons, even though we had been deceived. Most of us could certainly read a book and tell what was Way doctrine, and what wasn't. Some of us could even choose to believe outside the TVT, even when we were still in. Your argument about why Wierwille refrained from foonotes just doesn't wash. Shaz

Hahahahohoheehee,stop it, Mike, you're cracking me up again! :D--> I'm sure VP neglected to cite his sources on purpose just to protect people like you...uh huh, right. The longer you talk, Mike, the deeper the hole you dig... Shaz

Mike, If you're gonna say that God fulfills positive believing, and the devil fulfills the negative, stop hinting about it and just say so. PFAL taught that "in order to receive any thing from God," you had to know what was available, how to receive, what to do with it, needs and wants parallel, and know that God's willingness = His ability. In negative believing, you would receive, but not from God. Big whup, Mike. It still doesn't explain the red drapes analogy, for one thing. Wierwille used that story to illustrate need and want parallel. In later years, it was explained to us that VP meant "parallel to the Word," but the analogy itself sure sounds like Wierwille meant the need should be parallel to the want. I certainly can't come up with a promise of God that would say you can believe for such a thing, and God would have to supply it. Red drapes ain't no need for a woman with no furniture anyway, no matter how you slice it. Now the negative believing side of Wierwille's teaching is also flawed. The "what killed that little boy" analogy is in the PFAL book, as well as the class, if memory serves. I could go with a BIG stretch that the mother was so fearful for her child that she always took responsibility for him, never taught him how to cross the street, and so the one day he goes by himself the devil takes advantage of his naiveté and kills him. That fits with the other analogy of the fearful driver who hadn't hit anything yet, but the fear of having a traffic accident was keeping him from his business. But that is not what Wierwille said. He said that "God would have to change the laws of the universe" to keep people from realizing their negative believing. Anybody with an ounce of common sense can see that we believe stuff in our hearts all the time, both positive and negative, both promises of God and not, and those things do NOT always come to pass. Shaz

Or, they would need to show that you are preventing them from making a profit, i.e. disseminating large portions of a book over the Internet to people who would otherwise have to buy the book to get that information. Regards, Shaz

Mike, Mike, Mike, I think you miss the point in the "My Sweet Lord"/"He's So Fine" analogy. You said: But George Harrison DIDN'T get a "pass." He was convicted of plagiarism, even though he probably didn't do it purposefully. The Stones didn't plagiarize anything, but were strongly influenced in the development of their style. As a choregrapher, I am well aware of the difference between there being nothing new under the sun, and stealing the actual phrases of movement. In the case of VP, he clearly took actual sentences out of their books and put them into his -- he wasn't merely "influenced" by their work, as he said so many times. You have tried to say that men of God should be more willing to share their "revelations" around, in the interest of spreading the Word. To which I will respond with only two points: 1.) Render unto Caesar -- we are supposed to obey the laws of the land, insomuch as we can. That, I suppose, would include plagiarism laws. 2.) If Wierwille was so concerned about spreading the Word, why didn't he offer PFAL for free? Oh, I forgot, the promise: "I will teach it to you like it hasn't been known since the first century, if you will sell it to others...." Shaz P.S. to socks -- I knew the story before, and every time I hear "He's So Fine" on the radio, I'm in the background singing, "Hare Krishna, Hare Hare...." !! Doo lang, doo lang-doo lang...

Wayne, Welcome to da 'Spot! You cracked me up. I hope Mike appreciates it half as much as I did. He needs all the followers he can get, 'cuz it's pretty lonely where he is. He deserves you! Regards, Shaz

Mike -- are red drapes a promise of God?

Mike, Stiles also was very p.o.'ed that his work had been plagiarized, and wrote about it in the later editions of his holy spirit book. Shaz