shazdancer

Hi brewmands! I was out of TWI before Martindale took office (though I'd heard that he was next in line). I can tell you that most of the doctrines and practices you speak of originated with VPW. Wierwille came up with the Athletes doctrine, LCM just put himself in the starring role that was originally danced by someone else. Wierwille was isolating and telling tales about people under the "mark and avoid" scripture, Martindale just made it a catchword. Wierwille hated the Jews, homosexuals, federal government, and anyone else he took a dislike to (his temper was legendary at Headquarters); Martindale just mouthed off in public more often. IMHO, Wierwille was more cunning -- Martindale was just a jerk! Hope that helps you, Shaz

Happiest Birthday, Z!!! At least it's a dry heat ( --> ), and you can always call "back East" at this time of year and ask them, "How's the weather?" Does Scottsdale still have the Parada del Sol? Loved it -- wave hi t the horsies for me! Regards, Shaz

But tell us, early, what do you really think? ;)--> Dear Dot, jon, vickles, et al, I didn't go away, just had nothing to say, really. You all have been doing just fine! And my point had simply been that I understand that it can be painful to relive the abuse. Jon, you've been there as well, and we both can appreciate how wonderful it is to get on with life. But there is something else at work here, and that is a need to do something good with one's life, to make the proverbial lemonade out of the lemons of TWI. I got burned by TWI in a few minor ways, so I speak about it, as one (anti-)witness, one piece of the puzzle that is the TWI cult. I suppose I could go work at a homeless shelter or feed the hungry, but I think my particular experience could help in a particular way, informing other Wayfers and ex-Wayfers that they are not alone. (And VP sure did his best to isolate his victims from one another.) So I hope we can all find a happy medium. Help here if we want to, but go on with our lives the rest of the time. As for me, there is only one small section of my life that is delegated to TWI-ish things, and most of that is my time here on Gspot. I hope this helps you understand, Jon. Dot, so sweet of you to apologize for nothing! Carry on, girl. May the new year bring us lots of peace. Shaz

Bottom line (LOL!), I think VPW got tired of being known for everyone else's material, and began to branch out into his own stuff. And it seems like every time he tried NOT to plagiarize, his stuff was awful! CFS, Athletes, and the ever popular "literals according to usage." I think it must have eventually bruised his ego to think that the stuff he made his ministry on wasn't his. And maybe he just started to believe that he WAS the MOG, and was the expert on any topic. The other thing that CFS did was to prepare people for Vic's "doctrine" of free sex. Step One: make people unshockable. Step 2: tell them that pre-marital sex is not proscribed by the Bible. Sure, we really needed to know the slang terms that HE knew for genitalia. Gawd, he couldn't even PRONOUNCE "genitalia"... Regards, Shaz

Dear Exy, I can understand not wanting to post your story. I think it is the same reason why Galen apologized to Dot for perhaps contributing to a situation where she felt she needed to tell it again. He felt it might cause her pain. I was not abused by Wierwille, but I have been abused. (I will not discuss it on a public forum for my own reasons, but you are welcome to ask in a private message, exy!) I faced my abuser in court. In order to do so, I had to keep my experiences with this person in the front of my mind, day after day. I have had to tell my "story" over and over, to strangers. I longed for the time I could just move on, feel good again, not relive what I went through. But it was necessary. One of the ways that I have moved on now is to avoid the kinds of stress and situations that remind me of the assault. Still, I have had rare flashbacks. Retelling the story sucks, plain and simple. But sometimes it is necessary. Dot felt that this was one of those times. YOU do whatever it takes to keep you at peace, plain and simple. I for one certainly understand, and respect everything you have done on GSpot to kick VPW off of his MOG pedestal. Peace, Shaz

Dear Galen, What if it were the reverse, and you were the one hurt by someone in the Navy. Would you want others to validate your experience, come to your aid, perhaps expose the perpetrator, even bring him to justice if necessary? What if they all turned aside and said, "But he was nice to me...?" The Catholic priests, the Baptist ministers, etc. etc. who perpetrate evil should be dealt with. Many of them are now being dealt with because someone brought their error to light. Victims are getting justice, others are having their feelings validated. Churches are changing policies because someone exposed the error. Some people were abused by what Wierwille did. Others ruined their lives by doing what he taught. I am not proposing that we dig up Wierwille's bones and hang him in effigy. I am saying that we should expose the error, so that people can begin to heal. Those people are your brothers and sisters in Christ. Are you willing to let your sister continue to suffer, and your other sisters continue to be misused, because it didn't happen to you? I am not. Regards, Shaz

Exactly, Thomas! I sin. I have done things that I am not proud of. Put them on the Internet, and I would be ashamed. But put them up next to what Wierwille or Martindale did, and I would come up smelling like a rose. I teach dance and gymnastics to children for a living. If I had a record of abusing children, would you want me teaching your child? But if I lied to my husband about taking out the trash, would it matter to you? But what if I had a long record of abusing children, and I advertised myself as the greatest expert in teaching gymnastics since the first century? TWI taught that sin is sin in God's eyes, but that doesn't mean it should all be handled the same by US. Otherwise, Jeffrey Dahmer would still be walking the streets. Heck, he's just a sinner.... Regards, Shaz

Agreed, Oldiesman. Many people can't comprehend that the man who was nice to them, or who had nice things to say about God, could possibly have evil intent toward others. And that is exactly what a predator hopes you will feel. It makes it easier for him to have access to his victims. It also makes it easier for him to live with himself. How many priests molested little altar boys over the years? We had one in our town, and I can't tell you how many people came forward in the local paper to support him. He couldn't possibly have done it, not our man of God, they said. Then came the discovery that he played fast and loose with the collection plate in another diocese. Oopsie. Regards, Shaz

What the hay, WhatTheHay? You said, Committing a sin = doing something contrary to God's expressed will. In a godly individual, followed by regret, repentance, and an attempt to not repeat the error. Living in sin = continually making the same sin over and over, knowingly and on purpose, without regret. I believe the Bible makes this same distinction. AND it just makes sense. An unrepentant playground bully should not be played with by the other children, lest he abuse them, too. But a child who has regretted his actions might be trusted gradually, as he proves he has truly changed. I don't have to be a serial killer to know that reveling in murdering people is worse than killing someone once by accident. I don't have to be a serial rapist to know that such a person is evil, and to be disapproved of. I have seen this "all have sinned, so don't judge VPW" doctrine come up more than once on Greasespot. I was surprised by it at first, because it just seems obvious to me that the intentional evil-doer is not in the same category as the person who is merely being human. I'm beginning to think that it is one of the more insidious bits of Waybrain to ever be propounded by that organization. The "we are all sinners" doctrine, along with the doctrine of the lockbox and "being spiritual enough to handle it" set the stage for Leadership, including Wierwille, to get away with their evil without being stopped. Thanks, Long Gone, you understood what I was saying, as I think many others do. Shaz

Thanks, Long Gone! seaspray, Uh, do you think that maybe Mary Magdalene had repented of her sin? Yet there is a pretty big cumulus cloud of witnesses to VP's life that he habitually sinned before, during, and after PFAL. If you can't see that, then maybe you just don't want to. (And BTW, I don't see any "gospels according to Mary M." in there, so her relationship with Jesus, though important, has little to do with what I was talking about.) Dear Galen, Living IN sin and committing a sin are two different things. I think the Bible disqualifies VPW from being the Man of God for Our Day and Time because of his living in sin and for sin, not because he committed sins. I hope that makes sense to you. I can forgive, but I would not elevate Wierwille to MOG status. Mike does. Mike believes that Vic's rebellious nature actually made him a better candidate to receive the revelation of God's New Word, which flies in the face of what the Bible says. Your posts sound like a man who is trying to live biblically. Mike would have you throw out your Bible whenever it contradicts what Wierwille wrote. Regards, Shaz

Thanks, WordWolf, well done! Addenda to Mike's view on VPW's atrocities: they are all excuseable, according to Mike, because God was using Vic for a bigger purpose, the transmission of His new Word of God. That gives him a bye on rape, verbal abuse, drunkenness, and plagiarism. In fact, his very rebellious nature made him more able to stand on God's New Word, according to Mike. Never mind that the Bible says that God gives his revelation to HOLY men, and Wierwille was not a holy man. He was not holy while he was formulating PFAL, while he was teaching it, nor after. And I'm not talking about the day-to-day mistakes that everyone makes. I'm talking about repeated, systematized rape and cruelty. I have pointed this out to Mike more than once on his threads, without name-calling or nastiness. He has NEVER responded to my charge that Wierwille was not a holy man. But Mike has accused me of being a Corps Nazi and an "unfit researcher," among other things. Galen, do you now see why peple get on his case, where they might listen more politely to others? Regards, Shaz

Touché, Galen. Hope, I graduated college IN the Corps, believe it or not. Perhaps I'm the only one who did. I went College WOW my first year of school. Then I after my second year, I took a leave of absense and got married. My third year, we were apprentice Corps, so I transferred to the Independent Study program of the university in readiness for my in-res year. While at Rome City, I chose a couple of more academic-looking courses, sent the paperwork back to my advisor at college, who then found a professor to verify them, and I got college credit for them. I completed my degree just before Corps graduation, and had my diploma mailed to me. Credit the looseness of the early 70's for letting me get away with THAT one! I got a BA from NYU, in Dance and Biblical Studies. Regards, Shaz

Oh def, Roy communicates just fine! I understand him better than some here who can type/spell perfectly. Mike, I am amused by your spin on what you have posted here in the past. You said, Sorry, but they didn't "demand" anything except rejection, and they were rejected by 95% of the posters on your threads. Feel free to take the ones who were in agreement with you (both of them), and expound the word of Mike in more detail. privately. If you continue to post it here, be ready for your ideas to be rejected, again. Nothing "startling" about them but a return to VPW's fantasy doctrine mixed with yours.Sorry, Mike, but you can't expect to go away for awhile, then come back and try and tell us how wonderful and enlightening your posts were. They weren't. Still shaking my head and laughing, Shaz

Hi Rottie, Yes, I have heard of this. My daughter's cat is visiting us this Christmas, and right at midnight he jumped up on the bed and looked at my partner and me, and I swear I could hear his thoughts. He was saying, "What are you two doing that I wasn't invited!" :D--> :P--> Just getting into the Christmas spirit, Shaz!

Merry Christmas, everyone! Peace, Shaz

Dear alfakat, Yes, I remember her. Every time someone talks about miracles n TWI I think of her story, and wonder if it was true. I had seen her around (a blue-eyed albino, unusual), but didn't know her personally, so I didn't know how true the story was. Her story was written up in that newspaper that TWI put out -- shoot, what was it called? ["Heart Magazine" -- thanks, Steve!] My first ex's story was also in one issue, about how he had come to the ROA in the midst of a drinking binge and now changed his ways for God. Unfortunately, he didn't. He went back to his alcoholism, and gave up on his children. No miracle story there. Thanks for the info, Regards, Shaz (Edited to try and fix the censored HHH's and III's, and to say it was "Heart Magazine." :D--> ) [This message was edited by shazdancer on December 19, 2003 at 21:45.]

Hahaha, SkepTex, thanks for mentioning Uncle Harry Day! Definitely dumb -- as if it wasn't enough to idolize the MOG, let's have a holiday for his brother, too! I remember buying the little book about UH's life, wanting to know what all the hubbub was about. I tried REALLY HARD to see him as the great man everyone said he was, but I couldn't see him as any more than just a decent guy with a successful small business (I never knew him personally). I was lucky enough to avoid all those Burn the Chaff days! :D--> Regards, Shaz

Some of you have heard this story before, but I think it bears repeating as tragic WayBrain... Our NYC Branch leader was an epileptic. Upon returning from a ROA, he was convinced that the best way to "walk out on his believing" was to stop taking his seizure medication. He died. I believe it was shortly after that that VPW came out with a statement about how to tell if you're healed BEFORE you stop taking your meds. (Maybe he was getting scared that there would be lawsuits!) He said that if you were healed, then your medicine would make you feel sick, and then you would know you could stop taking it. VPW simply substituted one bad doctrine for another.... Regards, Shaz

"They shouldn't charge money for a class about the Bible." -- Mom Touché, Mom.

Dear M&A, Yes, the Corps was definitely about obedience to Wierwille. I knew going in that it was to be about discipline, but having been trained to be a professional dancer at the college level, I did not find the discipline aspects especially difficult. (Granted, I couldn't participate in everything, because I was pregnant in my in-res year.) I had thought that there would be in-depth training in The Word. I was disappointed. Some classes were rehashes of classes everyone had already taken, like CF&S, etc. The public speaking course by Bill Maize was only marginally Christian, and if you'd read How to Win Friends and the Memory Book, you already knew most of it. The Christian Counseling course should not have made anyone think that they were competent to counsel anyone with a problem more difficult than a hangnail. And I still shake my head over the Reflections gal, teaching us how to look our best, saying, "I wore these shoes even though they don't fit my feet now that I'm pregnant, but I like the way they make my ankles look thin...." -->! VPW was into his "literal translation according to usage" phase, which wasn't a literal translation at all, but his private interpretation of what he wanted to emphasize in each verse. But the biggest surprises I got there were the lack of loving interest shown us by leadership, and the huge amount of attention given to Wierwille whenever he visited, even though he'd said to us once that he wished he could come and go without fanfare. I had a distict impression at the time that many of us were being kind to one another in spite of leadership. And I have more than one recollection of elder Corps lording their status over us. When VP came to visit IC, we all had to clean extra, the kitchen cooked special foods by a gourmet chef that the rest of us didn't ever see, and whoever was in charge of VP's living quarters had a long list of things that had to be done precisely, right down to the mint on the pillow. I knew I was getting a special dispensation to be there, being pregnant, so I kept quiet, mostly. (Except I did ask VP about the special treatment he got, and he dismissed the question.) But it was the beginning of the end of my involvement in TWI, as I saw for the first time that things were corrupt at the top. Regards, Shaz

Dear Dovey, My deepest thanks to you for posting that. It goes beyond words.... Please accept my sympathy, however belated, on your losses. TWI sucked. Shaz

Dear Dot, It is all about power. Narcissists want to be heard, they don't want to listen. They want to align themselves with authority to impress others -- who better to be aligned with than God Almighty? They want to be admired, so they create a persona of goodness and expertise. They prefer to take shortcuts to power, hence the plagiarism. I think there are many true "leaders" in the body of Christ. But you won't hear about them much in the media. It might even be hard to track down their names. That is because they are busy helping people. They are not heady with gaining personal power. They are busy, serving. Regards, Shaz

P.S. to Oldies, having read your most recent posts: I do not know if VPW was "of the devil," or never born again, or any of that. But if the Bible be true, and every man's work be tried as if by fire, I think VPW will be standing in a pile of ash, clothed by some charred BVD's! ;)--> Shaz

LOL, Dot, nice segue! Sorry, but I want to choo-choo once more. I know we are coming down hard on Oldies, but there are many who lurk here who feel the same way. And to Oldies' credit, he HAS changed some of his views after careful consideration of what was said here on Gspot. Oldies, I hope you will consider further. Some people have been fortunate enough never to have been close to a personality-disordered individual. They try to understand a person's actions in the light of a normal person's motivations. People with disordered personalities often cannot be understood in this way, because they live by different rules -- their own. Trying to explain away Wierwille's motivation as being "horny" is about like saying that Jeffrey Dahmer was hungry! And I'm sure that Dahmer did some kind things in his day. I can bet that some of his neighbors never suspected, maybe always thought of him as "quiet" or "polite." Well, Wierwille was kind to his dogs, prayed for people, taught the Bible, helped people get born again. But he was also overtly abusive to tender-hearted people who were in his care. Wierwille was a MINISTER OF THE GOSPEL, so even if those young girls had come on to him, stripped naked in front of him, he should have recognized that they needed help, and that he would be sinning to give in to them. Wierwille was MARRIED, so he should have told them no, out of respect for his wife. Wierwille was a FATHER, with children the SAME AGE AS THOSE WOMEN, so he should have had fatherly instincts to protect them, and should have left them alone. Wierwille was a US CITIZEN, and as such knew that he was breaking the law by using drugs or alcohol to trap his victims. Or to approach underage girls. He also knew that what he did would not be approved of by society at large, and the believers in particular, hence the need for the "lockbox." Wierwille was a MAN, and should have had the guts to approach a peer for sex, not the naive younger generation. Or his wife. Or, upon being rejected, he should have used his own right hand! Let me put it to you this way, Oldies. You are now probably about the same age, and older, than VPW was when he did these things. When YOU are horny, do you forsake your wife or partner? Look for high schoolers and college kids to seduce? Try to teach that extramarital sex is from God for those who are as savvy as you? Would your actions be okay if you only went after some of the women, and were kind to others? Hoping you will consider some more, Shaz

Exy, Dot, Oldies, et al, Perhaps the problem is what we think of as "evil." I used to think it was like in the movies -- shifty-eyed, grimacing, everything done with a snarl, never a kind word to anybody. Ebeneezer Scrooge meets Dracula, ya know? But the face of evil is not like that. The truly evil person shows kindness regularly, especially when it costs him very little. He justifies his life to himself that way -- if he were only evil always, he could not stand to live with himself. He is cheerful and upbeat, confident, well-mannered and well-groomed, drawing people with his charisma. He fools others about what he really stands for, and more importantly, he fools himself. But keeping up this charade takes a lot of energy, so sooner or later, his selfish intents will emerge. Those who he has so easily put on pedestals of admiration he just as easily demeans and discards. People, to him, are not to be loved, they are to be used, for admiration, and sex, and money, and power. He looks for people who are gentle, kind, forgiving, and nurturing, because they will overlook his evil the longest. (Exy, are ya listening?) On the fringes of his acquaintance are those whose reputations boost his -- in his inner circle are those from whom he can take what he wants. So while the masses are lauding him to the skies for his wonderful deeds among them, he is privately writing them off as beneath him, as he is the Enlightened One. And he rides on the wave of his reputation to victimize the chosen few. Regards, Shaz