shazdancer

Mike, You said The figure of speech condescencio is NOT about God deigning to speak to man. (Wierwille should have more rightly called it Anthropopatheia, anyway, since he was talking about Greek figures of speech, not Latin ones.) It is used when human characteristics are attributed to God. Nothing more. Sheesh, you really should master your PFAL materials better! And I don't think God would get very far if He went around insulting everyone's intelligence. You don't seem to be getting very far, either! Mike, you THINK you "have the truth of the matter." You don't know, and to condescend to peers, not children, brings you into the modern connotation of the word "condescend," which is arrogance. Shaz

WhatTheHay, I'm sure I don't begin to understand your logic. Mike, You said... Ah, but when I got out after a dozen years, you said I chickened out and got out too early! You sure do make it up as you go along.SOME people stayed in for family, some out of fear, as Oak said. Still others had a sense that they might be able to help the ministry better from the inside instead of the outside. Many posters have posted their reasons for staying in TWI. Many have also discussed what they do for a living now, and how much better their lives are now that they are out of TWI. Also, I wouldn't be so fast to make you and Oldies into an "us." I've never heard Oldies post that he thinks PFAL replaces the Bible. Shaz

WhatTheHay, Ignorant? Only somewhat, speaking for myself, ignorant mass that I am. But definitely not the "professional who has a vested interest in tradition and thereby keeping a monopoly on learning" that you would have us to be. I am not a professional in the Christian faith. No one pays me to be a Christian, and I don't believe I hold the cornerstone on all truth. I have no vested interest in preventing learning -- in fact, I welcome learning, and am one who is promoting new learning in a particular area of the medical field as we speak. I have no ability to prevent others from disseminating any doctrine they please. If there is a collective opinion about the words and work of Victor Paul Wierwille here at Greasespot, then it is only the opinion of a few, noteworthy only in that so many different people can come to such similar conclusions about the man. Sorry if that bothers you. Shaz

"The Thirteenth Tribe," Mike. No Google. And I dunno about him being one of the great minds... his history of the Jews was nothing new. Shaz

Dear WhatTheHay, You quoted Koestler... We GSers ARE the masses that Koestler talks about. We don't have a vested interest in believing one Way or another, and we don't sit in a room and agree on theology. I have heard people in these forums mention a number of different belief systems (including atheism, agnosticism, shamanism, Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, without reproach from other Gspotters. Disagreement, yes. But not reproach to the extent that Mike receives. Don't you understand why?And BTW, your logic is flawed. Many innovators come from outside the establishment, but that does not make every person whose views are outside the mainstream an innovator. It may make him a nut! Regards, Shaz

No Mike, you don't know if Wierwille repented. But there is ample evidence that he DIDN'T. If the POP paper is to be believed at all, there is no record of VPW confessing his sin in this area, or of teaching anyone that TWI should quit with the sexual and emotional abuse stuff. Sexual and verbal impropriety DEFINED the administration of Craig Martindale. If Wierwille ever repented, he certainly didn't make it clear enough to the second President of The Way that Craig would clean up his act. Part of repentance is making restitution wherever possible. I don't recall excathedra or valerie or Dot or ANYONE telling us that they received a phone call from the man to say he was sorry for what he had done. I know I didn't in the small situation that I had with him. To the contrary, he wanted to put blame on me. And yet he had plenty of public opportunities to set the record straight. Had he opened his mouth, people would have hung on every word. Mike, you have often tried to equate VPW's walk with God with that of David, and yet VP himself said that David was not in fellowship with God when he was out having Uriah killed. Yet VPW produced his books and classes WHILE he was giving his whole life over to his lusts. His was not the "oopsie, making a mistake" kind of sinning, but living knee-deep in sin and for sin. Even if, on his deathbed, VPW suddenly saw the light and repented, then thank God, but it does not somehow purify the error-filled teachings he plagiarized and make them become God-breathed. It does not retroactively elevate him to MOG status. If God was talking to Victor Paul during those years, it was to say, "Stop hurting my children!" Shaz

I agree, vickles, the BOD would spin it in some way. I think the best thing that prevents that sort of thing is that most TWI-ers live in the world, with secular jobs and contacts. I'd be more concerned about Staff and Corps. Luckily now, their numbers are fewer than at TWI"s prime. Regards, Shaz

UH, insurgent, TWI is buying houses for INDIVIDUALS, but they can't provide care for the founder's wife in her own home, because it goes against their non-profit status???? ???? And Rosalie, tell Donna she can't live at HQ anymore, like every other Corps person whose spouse was kicked off of grounds, including me. Hypocrites. Shaz

Hi vickles, Remember the Waco cult? They had been taught that they would be in the Armageddon, so that when the feds started busting into their compound, that's probably what they thought it was. When I heard on the radio that they were using tanks to poke holes and throw in teargas, I literally yelled at my radio for them to stop. I knew it would be a tragic end for those people, either by fight or by suicide, because I remembered similar "It's us against the world," dog soldier-type talks with VPW. I couldn't believe that the feds didn't bother to consult with any expert in cult mentality before going in there with force. Regards, Shaz

Nice, laleo and JustThinking. You would have enjoyed being here this past season, as our town celebrated the 100th year of L. Frank Baum's book (and our 100-year old library) by having the whole town read The Wizard of Oz! Don't forget the epitome of evil and fear, the Wicked Witch of the West. But she is easily undone with a little water (ooh, washing/drowning/baptism imagery!). Hoping all is going well for you along the road of yellow brick, Shaz

PS to Johnny Lingo, Socks won't toot his own horn (pardon the pun), so allow me to do it for him. He can play, fer sure. He proved it time and again when he played for Way Prod. If he gives you some guitar licks to play in front of, you will enjoy it! Have fun. Shaz

Dear Socks, Leave it to TWI to stifle artists from doing what they do. Kinda sounds like the old Soviet Union or People's Republic of China, huh? Control it quick, 'cuz I don't understand it, and someone might say something bad against me. In reality, they were telling the various parts of the body, "I have no need of you." Or telling the eye, "Okay, you can see, but let me put this big ol' beam in there while you try to do it!" Glad that your art survived TWI, Shaz

Don't sweat it,rascal, I got the "bitter" label from the ol' VP himself, when I thoughtfully and politely responded to his form letter asking "what did I do to you that you didn't come to Corps week." We were taught by example from the founder that "ministering" to people was to tell them off, then write them off. I remember at Rome City, at joke time, we were not to tell ethnic jokes, but we could insert the term "unbeliever" and tell the same joke! All the old jokes about Polish, Jewish, African American, gay, or other groups of people were told about unbelievers. In the presence of the children. Pretty pitiful. To those who want to label me "bitter" for talking about the injustices of TWI: I also advocate for Lyme disease awareness. Does that make me bitter for having had Lyme disease? Regards, Shaz

"...So these admonitions to the Corps to get their bodies in control...." Geez, Craig, you couldn't keep your pants zipped, and you were worried about people smoking?! Megalomaniac, out of control.

Dearest Mandii, thanks for your story. What a frightening situation from start to finish. So glad your good sense was still intact enough to get you out of there, Lord knows what would have happened to you if you hadn't. A coupla thoughts: -- I think the "whistle-blower" tends to get attacked because, otherwise, the people she is reporting to would have to admit that they were part of the problem, in not seeing or fixing the problem a lot sooner. They don't want to feel ashamed, they don't want their jobs to be at stake, etc. "That the ministry be not blamed" could be the clarion call for Enron or any other organization that tried to hide their inadequacies. -- I never worry about people who do not disclose their story in whole or in part. There are a lot of reasons why they might not, including, as you said, not wanting to relive the painful incident. I am sure others understand that as well, even if our curiosity might be pricked. So don't sweat it! Jeez, what jerks TWI leaders were to allow someone like that on the WOW field! So often, they were in so far over their heads, and thought that they could make it work by waving a Bible and saying something they heard on a Sunday service tape. Regards, Shaz

Thanks, dear Abi, for this: I also would have never stayed with my abusive husbands as long as I did were it not for that nagging feeling that God would bless me if I just got it right.... When I finally realized that I WAS believing, I WAS doing it right, and it WASN'T working, I got out!Okay, funny story here. First ex and I were "assigned" to AZ, to be near a guy who was supposed to help him. That guy left the field after just a few months -- so much for the "heavy revvy" on our assignment! Hubby was still drinking, still abusing, I hadn't had a decent night's sleep in days, so I went to leadership for help. LC's wife takes one look at me and says, "Well, if you'd wash your hair and make yourself look nice, he'd want to come home to you." Ohhh, so his lifetime of alcohol abuse (long before he met me) can be cured with a little Head and Shoulders!!!! Silly me for not seeing the error of MY ways. Even my drinking husband, when he was sober, was the first to say she was stupid to think that my flat hair had anything to do with his problems. Note to Oldies: Please understand, I was raised to be pretty independent. My parents insisted I attend college, I was never raised to feel that I was inferior as a girl. Yet I was momentarily flummoxed by the LC wife's statement. I should have told her where to stuff it, in love of course! But I wanted to be a good child of God, and I had been fed stuff about "submit to your husband" and then I would be blessed. The "miserable comforter" was an older Corps, a rev LC's wife. I'll admit, it didn't take long to reject her statement as bunk, but imagine if I wasn't so independent, or if the suggestion was more plausible.... Regards, Shaz

Agreed, exy, if you married a good guy, he read Eph. 5 and he heard "GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT," and went with his gut. If you married a jerk, he read Eph. 5 and heard "HEAD OF THE WIFE" and it justified being a jerk. But I think many fell in between, weren't sure how they were to behave with their wives in a godly fashion, and looked to leadership to provide examples of how to deal. Big mistake there! Regards, Shaz

Oh, puh-leeez! VPW told EW in "The Way: Living In Love" that that he respected the man who led him into tongues (J.E. Stiles) because of how he "handled" his wife, when she asked him how long he would be, and he told her it was none of her business! VPW told his wife to leave her newborn in the hands of relatives because they were going to India. VPW told men MANY times that they needed to get their wives in line. VPW left his wife in the house while he stayed in the motorcoach, molesting young followers. VPW preferred to counsel with my first ex while he was totally drunk, rather than wait for him to sober up and talk to BOTH of us. Even afterward, when I found myself "re-assigned," I was not allowed to talk to the MOG, being told by Don W. that "you will be blessed because you will be with your husband." Yea, I got real blessed -- the only blessing in that decision was that I left HQ, and later TWI and my drinking husband. Yes, Ephesians states that the husband is to love the wife like Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it, but I never heard how that was to work in practice, and I certainly NEVER saw VPW operate or encourage anything but dictatorship between husbands and wives. Perhaps muddling the minds of so many men with this doctrine/practice discrepancy is a kind of abuse of power all its own.... Regards, Shaz

Dear Zix, Yeah, having parents who said NOTHING to me, I used to preface such talks with my girls with, "'ScusemeifIseemkindofawkwardaboutthisbutmyparentsnevertalkedtomeaboutsex, Sooo..." Although they don't tell me EVERYTHING by any means (one now married, one in college), they have had frank discussions with me that I would have never had with my own mom. I'm proud of my girls, fer sure. So how do you talk to a BOY teenager, as a single mom? I dunno, but I do anyway! Regards, Shaz

Dear Z, You know what they say: them what's not gettin' any talk about it a lot! So all I have to say, is... :D--> Regards, Shaz

Well said, diazbro! Thanks. Linda, I like what you said about God reaching out to people no matter what organization they are in. Then can we say that we are thankful for that corrupt organization, or thankful for God? I am thankful for many people who belonged to TWI who helped me. I am thankful for many people who never heard of TWI who helped me, too. And thank you for an interesting discussion! Regards, Shaz

Yeah, Andrea, a lot of women in TWI suffered with men who thought they were lord and master of their homes, but not the head of their homes like Christ was head of the church, and gave himself for it. I think that Wierwille (and later Martindale) loved to think of himself as The Man of God. But he didn't pattern himself after the Christ of the gospels, but rather the avenging Christ of Revelation. And people loved to emulate him. MOGs and min-MOGs.... Regards, Shaz

Oh Bowtwi, If you'd played in that red Jello, the food coloring would've stained your skin, and all your friends would've been pointing and laughing the next day! :D--> Shaz

Dear Linda Z and Jonny Lingo, Understood, you got what you wanted out of TWI. Likewise. I'd promised myself even before I went into the Corps, that if TWI ever stopped standing for God, I'd stop standing for TWI. When I saw it was corrupt at the head (and I didn't even know about the sex stuff back then), I left. However, looking back now, I absolutely feel that I was conned into thinking that these were spiritual men, all nine all the time and all that. I am not ashamed of what I did during my time in TWI. Aside from occasional human failings, I tried to help with the love of God when I could. There are actually 2 TWI's: the one made up of sincere Christians trying to do the right thing, and the inner circle of corrupt leadership. I am sorry that I gave time and money to support the latter. The loss of emotional health of so many was not worth the "good times" I may have gotten out of that organization. Can you just imagine God saying, "Well, we're gonna have to sacrifice a bunch of My kids so that some others can hear the rightly-divided Word." I think that is putting the cart before the horse. I would hope that God would care more about people than about a book, even His book. And yeah, I think that some people have a hard time accepting what Wierwille did, because to do so is to admit that they were WRONG about that organization, and that man. If that does not describe you, no sweat! :)--> Regards, Shaz

Dear Linda, I think that another part of the equation is that people hate to think they got hoodwinked. If they can accept that Wierwille lied, plagiarized, and abused, then the next step would be to admit that he had fooled them into thinking of him as the Teacher, the MOG, our "father in the Word." I would only suggest that we WERE fooled -- but by an expert, so we should not be embarrassed. A narcissist's whole existence is consumed with creating and maintaining a facade for people to admire. We were conned because we were good people who wanted to be our best for God, and wanted to love others with a pure heart. We wanted to be forgiving. These are the exact characteristics that a narcissist looks for to exploit in others. The irony is, that we were fooled because we were exactly what TWI SHOULD have stood for, and we were the major reason why TWI was as sweet as it was in many locales. Regards, Shaz