shazdancer

Hi JT, If your event was in Phoenix, circa 1983-ish, then we probably do know each other. Forgive me in advance if the name doesn't ring a bell -- it was a long time ago. But drop me a line, on Private Topics or email. Shaz

Mike, You attempted to discuss "abundance" as meaning spiritual abundance. But that is not all of what VPW taught. He also taught that material abundance was part of the package. I agree with Socks' post on the "Masters of the Word" thread on what was taught in the beginning of PFAL. Wierwille taught that God was gonna meet your need (not greed) when you believe, right down to the itty-bitty details (red drapes). It was a law, worked for saint and sinner, mathematical exactness, yada yada. Then he goes on to teach that our greatest need is a spiritual one, that we have no holy spirit, and are incomplete, cut off from God, no eternal life. But that DOESN'T negate that he teaches material abundance. One of the Corps principles (the old ones that VP espoused and we were to memorize) was "Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry." So now you want to say that you REALLY meant that you have you are free from fear, unlike kings? Sorry Mike, I also work for many very wealthy people who are doing just fine in the freedom-from-fear department. I would be quite content to have their money and show how I can handle it! ;)--> Do some of those rich people have troubles in their lives? Yes, as do we all, saint and sinner alike. So now you have been reading and studying PFAL as if it was Holy Writ for at least six years. One would think you would have something to show for it -- after all, it didn't take Paul six years to get from being a Christian-killer to doing some pretty mighty works. Picked any winning horses lately? ;)--> (Ya gotta love that analogy of VPW's -- it goes so against the grain of everything he taught about when revelation is given.) I haven't exhausted any supply of debate against your points, Mike. I just think that when a blind man says, "Walk in here, you will get perfect 20/20 vision," I gotta question that statement, since the blind man hasn't received the gift himself. Life is short, I'm not going to waste it chasing a carrot on a stick. Why do I post on your threads? Simple -- I hate rotten carrots, and I'd hate to think that someone else would go after one without first being warned that the carrot is rancid, and on a stick. Shaz

Mike, what you said about "I have a very comfortable life, probably better than most kings who ever lived enjoyed. My life is better than 99.999% of all humans who ever lived" is misleading, and you know it. Was it your intent to entrap people who would question that statement? Hmm, compared materially to all the kings alive TODAY, I would tend to think your lifestyle is meager. So is mine, but I'm not claiming that it's better. (I know, you are trying to include "all the kings that ever lived.") Compared to starving-children-in-Africa, I'd say that my life and your life is better, materially. So what? My life would be just as good or meager if I never became a Christian, because I had the good fortune ( ;)--> ) to be born in an affluent country. So who did sin, these children, or their parents, that they were born into poverty? So what I'm saying is that God didn't come down specially to give you running water because you believe in PFAL, Mike. The question was, How has your six+ years of study of PFAL made your life better? All I hear from you is that you now feel complacent (I want to say smug) in the knowledge that you have found the truth. Big whoop, Mike, --> . Particularly so when Wierwille's Big Lie was that operating the principles of PFAL would bring financial prosperity and good health. Particularly so when you keep offering the Big Lie of "all nine all the time," when you aren't even manifesting that yourself. Shaz

Oldies, here's a fine example of being scammed into hawking PFAL.... I was involved in a play that was written and directed by an apprentice Corps lady. Shortly before we were to perform it for the public, we were told we would go into the audience right at the end of the last scene, green cards in hand. There was NO mention made of this little addition to the final scene, until it was really too late to back out without causing a problem to the production. (I have no idea if it was the Corps person's idea to do this, or someone else's.) It was embarrassing -- I had invited my employer and her husband to the event! One more scam: signing up for "Recognized Corps," meaning we would have a 2-year training program, then not have to commit the rest of our lives to Corps assignments. Then being told after we graduated that "Doctor didn't really want to have a Recognized program," and have someone try to give me a Corps evaluation and require me to attend all Corps functions. Regards, Shaz

Dear johniam, "Trusting TWI to teach about them, though, is like trusting the 3 stooges to fix your plumbing." Crack me up! There was the accusation that women who were in abusive relationships had the spirit of masochism. (Wasn't that in the DWA class?) Talk about danged if you do or if you don't! If you left, God wasn't blessing you for submitting right or wrong, but if you stayed, you were possessed! Regards, Shaz

Yikes, Abigail, I wish someone could come up with the history of what happened. In '79--'80, Family Corps was taught that a 2-year-old could attend a Children's Fellowship meeting, lasting no more than like, 10 minutes! The BOD/BOT could fume over how many mints were left on their pillow, but not correct this kind of s***, makes me ill. Regards, Shaz

Oldies, How the teaching about the rod became corrupted reminds me about how a lot of things became corrupted. Wierwille could have opened his mouth at any time and people would have jumped to obey him. They didn't, because he didn't. It just wasn't important to him. How sad that the wellbeing of children just wasn't that important to supposed Man of God. It certainly was that important to Jesus! It is also one of the reasons why I was wondering what happened to C**** Berna****, head of Children's Fellowship. A lot of the heart that SHOULD have been caring for children according to the Word came from her. What happened to her? Does anybody know? I didn't confront that elder Corps mom who was smacking her son for giving the wrong homework answers. I should have. Instead, neophyte Corps that I was, I ran it past the head of Children's Fellowship. I have no idea if any action was taken. I can imagine that many problems got lost in the Way Tree that way. But it always comes back to Wierwille. It was the BOT's responsibility to oversee leadership placements. They moved a known child molester into another state to run Children's Fellowship. He may still be in TWI. In the Catholic Church, priests who molested were defrocked, even imprisoned. And the bishops who covered for them lost their jobs. Shaz

Oldies, I was taught in TWI, in Family Corps, that the use of the spoon was NOT for a beating at all, but for a single swat to get a child's attention when that child was willfully disobediant. It was for when that child was defiant. It was NOT for punishment, and not to be used in anger. So where are you coming up with the Aesop's fable that says the young thief should have been beaten? I caught my kid stealing something, when she was little. I explained to her, firmly, why it was wrong, and why we didn't do such a thing. I called the store and told them we were coming. Then I took her back to the store, and had her return the item to the security guard (who sure looked to her like a policeman!), and had her apologize. My bold-as-blazes daughter was scared and ashamed. She stayed on the good side of the law for the rest of her childhood (not to say she was perfect, lol!). There are lots of ways to give doctrine, reproof, and correction to children. As an educator, I have to use those methods all the time. In TWI, many people immediately went for the spoon. How could the Corps not see so much perversion of the rod doctrine and not stop it? Because they were doing it, too. How come VPW didn't make it a priority to teach and correct the practice? Because he couldn't have cared less. Remember, this was the man who had his wife leave their newborn with others, because he wanted her with him in India, without the baby. Shaz

Dear Trefor, After hearing George Bush spout off on marriage, I feel like I should apologize for my country. AND I will be emailing the White House to let them know that they lost my vote. I am a registered Republican. I think it is bad policy (and it will never make it as a Constitutional amendment), and bad politics. Now, for those of you that just CAN'T let gay people get legally married in a civil ceremony: what gives? Did you step forward to protest and enact laws when men and women got married for money? Did you care when they got married and had no plans to have children? Did you look for legal means to stop any other couple from having a marriage that wasn't as Christian as you think marriage should be? Then why are you singling out gay marriage? How many of you men are circumcised? What if the Jews decided that they would rise up and enact laws that would make non-Jewish circumcision illegal? After all, most Jewish people consider circumcision a very sacred practice in their faith. We Gentiles muddy up that sanctity by wanting to do it also. If the US government wants to hold up your right to define marriage according to your Christian beliefs, then it had better be equally ready to allow Jews the exclusive right to circumcision. (Better start thinking about where that skin graft is gonna come from! ;)--> ) Shaking my head, Shaz

Oldies, I was out during TWI-1. Believe it, there was plenty of cr*p then to bury TWI under, even if Craig had never come to power. I'm glad things were sweet where you were. They were where I was, too -- until I went to the Root of the problem... Shaz

Oldies, I gotta tell you, there was more than one person I met in the Corps, that made me think, "How the heck did that person ever qualify to get here?" The answer is, people were NOT screened, even though they were supposed to be. If they took the prerequisite classes, and came up with the payment, they were "leadership material." There were some wonderful, godly people there. AND there were some who should have never been trusted with a wooden spoon. I "have no friends" when it comes to the well-being of my kids! Compare that with what VPW declared, and you are at the heart of the difference between us. Shaz

I first heard about the "I Love You Forever" book from one of my nursery schools. All the teachers had passed it around, and they ALL got weepy over it! They're all moms as well as teachers. There's a reason why I have hung around with them since 1986... ;)--> Today, we danced a few pages of the book Aska's Birds. Beautiful illustrations where the artist has owls resembling snowy evergreens, and ostriches resembling tutu'd ballerinas. (You'd have to see it to get what I mean.) Unique! Regards, Shaz

Oldies, Do you feel better now, you got CW to say that she doesn't believe in hitting a child at all? Now take me on. I believe it IS okay to spank a child, if that's what it takes to get through to her/him. (I had one child whose biggest punishment was a time out, another who could have cared less if you put her in her room.) But we're not talking about spanking. We're talking about abuse. We're talking about telling EVERY parent they had the right to hit ANY child who they felt was out of line. I wouldn't want my kids whacked by some insane parent who didn't have any parameters on when it was right to "get my kid's attention." And it is clear to me that there were parents put in positions of authority who didn't have a clue as to when to use the spoon, or when to teach or distract the child. We're talking about repeated child sexual molestation, and a BOT that covered it up, just like in the Catholic church. They knew, and they put people in harm's way. They blackballed those who spoke up against the abuse, when they should have thanked them! And having just come from a mandatory reportersd' seminar, I can tell you that the state considers any hit that leaves a mark as abuse. End of discussion there. But there a lot more subtle forms of abuse, that leave no mark, but can injure for life.... Shaz

Aw, freaky, you hit me where I live! :)--> I have a collection of children's books, some of which I use when I teach movement to preschoolers. They are wonderful at putting big ideas into few words, like poetry. The books mentioned so far are wonderful! Here are a few more... I Love You the Purplest -- addresses sibling rivalry for mom's love The Salamander Room -- a boy's willingness to do everything to make his new-found pet happy Miss Rumphius -- about the lady who planted lupines everywhere, making her corner of the world a little better The Dance (by Richard Paul Evans, who wrote The Christmas Box) -- made me cry, because she danced for her father, and part of me does, too! For older children's books, I would recommend Madeleine L'Engle's A Wrinkle in Time, and Lois Lowry's The Giver. Regards, Shaz

HI everybody, Maybe you all can clarify some of the history of children's fellowship for me. I agree with Mandii, there wasn't much teaching about the rod at first, because we were all young ourselves, no children. But then instruction developed, mostly around the use of the wooden spoon. C**** Ber****** coordinated Children's Fellowship for Family Corps 4/6, when I was there. She had a background in early childhood ed, and was very specific about having fellowships meet the needs of children according to their age, i.e., little children should not be expected to sit for long periods, etc. Her new husband G*** was her assistant. I was pregnant with my first kid -- I was paying close attention to how I should raise that kid. At Lightbearers, I saw a Family Corps 5 mom use the spoon to "help" a child do his homework. When he got an answer wrong, whack! Sure enough, soon he was too scared to even think straight, let alone get an answer right. I asked CB about this incident when I got back. No, she said, that was definitely not the right way to use the spoon. Fast forward several years, and I hear that C and G split up (is that correct?), and that now G*** runs children's fellowship. And I hear such lousy reports from all of you. Where did C**** go? Is this another case of the husband being preferred for leadership because he is the man? Regards, Shaz

I dunno, Thinking. I just don't get it that God Almighty can't seem to communicate in a way that loving, waiting children would understand. Still working on the logic of that. If I figure it out, I suppose I'll start my own denomination! :)--> Shaz

Okay, the more balanced approach to interpreting the life of VPW: Positive: Biggest contribution -- put together a number of teachings on the Bible, thereby getting thousands of people on the road to being Christians, which we HOPE makes for eternal life Negative: Biggest contribution -- personally abused many (dozens? hundreds?) sexually, emotionally, financially, and spiritually, including setting up and covering for leaders who did additional damage (certainly in the hundreds) which we KNOW destroyed their lives in THIS life. Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin. Shaz

Dear CW, Your story is appalling, but sadly not surprising, since the whole TWI machine was set up to cover for the top men in TWI. And I'll bet that Wayfers were the first to say "told you so" when the Catholic priest sex scandals came to light.... What year was this when the Alaska stuff happened? Did the state prosecute the guy involved? I would just want that a****** as far away from children as possible for the rest of his life. Regards, Shaz

WTH, Goey being jealous of you has got to be one of the funnier statements I've heard in a long time. Maybe you're just ....ed that he caught you. I was being polite about suggesting how you might present a quote whose source you don't know, but since you're being impolite, let me put it another way: to quote (even for free) without saying that the words are not yours is intellectually dishonest. And I disagree with you. When VP said "check it out for yourself," he meant read it in the Bible, do the concordance study, for yourself. You couldn't Google a quote back then, and B. G. Leonard's and J. E. Stiles' writings weren't exactly available at the bookstore, ya know? Shaz

Okay, suppose we give TWI the benefit of the doubt here. (I can buy it that much of the writings of the OT, gospels, and Acts reflect what people did, not necessarily what God wanted them to do.) What God really meant, according to TWI, was for Abraham to dedicate his son to temple service. Then that makes God a pretty lousy communicator, if He can't get His Will through to Abraham in a way that Abe could understand it. And yeah, I never understood Job losing his kids and then getting more as being a restoration. Kids aren't furniture. Regards, Shaz

Thank you, alfakat. I was just going to say the same thing, that I never worshipped the man, didn't post his pic on my desk or wall, thought Uncle Harry's book was silly, didn't take up any hobbies or habits that he had, never bought the VP's favorite poetry book, because I thought the poems he liked were trite. I just thought he taught great Bible, that is, until I stepped away from TWI and really looked at PFAL with my brain engaged. But what did he say about himself? What did he expect us to believe? He wanted us to think of him as the MOG for our day and time. He hinted that he was an apostle, called himself The Teacher, and told me that he had more than one gif ministry. He said God had taught him personally. He accepted being treated like royalty wherever he went, and raged when he wasn't. If I didn't idolize him, it certainly wasn't because he was humble. Did people get born again on account of what he taught? Yup, they did. Were others' hearts and lives destroyed on account of his systematized error? Yes, they were. I can guess that Wierwille himself justified his evil acts by reminding himself of all the good he did, and felt entitled to indulge himself, so it is no wonder that Oldies and WhatTheHay are confused by the dichotomy. I for one don't deny that he did good, but I have to wonder about the motivation behind it, for I can't imagine myself treating anybody the way he did. Shaz

WhatTheHay, You said, I have, believe me, I have. Shaz

I dunno, WhatTheHay, I keep trying to put together what you're saying with what Wierwille's life and work were, and with what people here on Greasespot have said, and it still doesn't mesh. (And btw, next time you want to quote an unknown author, you might try saying something like, "a writer once said..." or "it has been said...," or do the Google search before you quote it.) You said that Wierwille's great contribution to Christian history was "The Word Of God Is The Will Of God." First of all, my understanding is that that quote originated with B. G. Leonard, not Wierwille. Second, it is certainly an important tenet of faith to many mainstream denominations, even though they may interpret that slightly differently than either Leonard or Wierwille did. You said, Okay, then by this do you mean to define a "great man of faith" as one with a large or new knowledge of God? I would have defined "man of faith" as one who walked out on the knowledge that he had, i.e. a man of virtue. But what the hay, WhatTheHay, we can go by your definition if you want. I think it is arguable that he brought great new knowledge to this generation.And I certainly take issue with your declaration that "to acquire great moral purity and virtue you would have to be a great man of faith before you acquire it!" Many have walked out on the little they knew and lived wonderful, loving, kind lives. Some have been motivated to do so only out of an empathy for their fellow man, not because of an understanding of the things of God. So no, I don't think you have to have great spiritual insight to be good. But you would think that those with great Biblical understanding would WANT to be good. So why wasn't Wierwille? Here's where you totally lose me... I have heard Gresespotters time and again talk about what VPW did. The only reason his deeds have "gotten worse" (your words) over the years is because more stories have surfaced. In the past, those who told their stories were marked and avoided, rarely to meet others with equally appalling stories. Those who told were painted as blasphemers by [The Way] establishment. Oopsie, better put some of that in quotes, because those are YOUR words about how you think Wierwille was treated! You say that people who nay-say against Wierwille were morally worse than he was. Um, wrong. SOME have said they were pretty corrupt before they got into TWI, then cleaned up their acts. Others here have never spoken much of their pre-TWI or post-TWI lives. As for me, I was pretty "pure" before TWI, in any category you want to name. So no, I DON'T buy your condemnation, and I DON'T get why a man who learned so much Bible, and supposedly received so much revelation from God, would do what he did with it. Finally, I don't recall Wierwille being called a blasphemer by any upper echelon of established religion. The "upper echelon" ignored him, probably never heard of him. Many mainstreamers disagreed with him, but I would hardly call that the "upper echelon." The words of Calvin, Luther, Wesley, etc. eventually gained acceptance because the masses believed them, and that acceptance gradually filtered upward into the upper echelon. Wierwille will never achieve that kind of acceptance. He will remain in obscurity. The few who revere him are more than offset by those who don't. Shaz

Nice find, Goey! I kept wondering why WTH was coming up with all this glorious prose that seemed to make no sense regarding how people regard Wierwille and PFAL. WhatTheHay, try asking each detractor what they think of Wierwille, instead of trying to paint us all with the same brush. As for me, I don't hate him or resent him, he's dead. I don't think anyone said they wanted to change a dead man. But I am more than happy to alert people to his history of plagiarism, misogyny, and abusive behavior, if it will help others to know that they were not alone, and that they will certainly NOT become "greasespots by midnight." I also note that you said you did not know the man, yet you seem to discount the stories of those who did. Why should I believe your words over what I saw with my own eyes? Why should I believe your words over the words of those who were there? Who is impotent? Not me. Who is inadequate? Not me. I don't resent the power Wierwille had. I don't want to run a Bible ministry. I have a life. I have the respect of my peers, and my children. Could Wierwille say the same? When I die, my name will go into obscurity, as will Wierwille's. But at least I tried to make my corner of the world a little better for others. Wierwille tried to prove that The Word of God Is The Will Of God, in order to fulfill his own lusts. Shaz [This message was edited by shazdancer on February 07, 2004 at 23:07.]

I know there was a guideline that you couldn't be pregnant and in-res in the Corps as early as 1979, because my then husband and I knew that we might have to drop out when I found out I was pregnant shortly after we arrived at Rome City. I remember meeting with B** and D**** M******n to discuss our "dilemma." I told them I had never been pregnant and never been Corps, but I was in good health, and was willing to do my best if they would let me. I also reminded them that we were intending to be Recognized Corps and then join Staff. Looking back, that was probably the selling point in them allowing us to stay. They were very interested in having my husband's cooking skills on staff at Rome City. My being there was strictly unimportant. In fact, BM was very disappointed when my ex got booted off of Staff for drinking. Heck, I got booted off of Staff for his drinking, so being preggers in the Corps clearly wasn't about me! Regards, Shaz