shazdancer

Sheesh, Oldies, I was out by then, but I either got the letter or read the letter from someone else who got it (I was with a small offshoot at the time). And the letter I read, addressed to the Corps, definitely had the "don't give me any of that standing with God crap" line in it. Remember, there was more than one letter going around. Heck, in TWI-1, no one excommunicated you for reading someone else's stuff, or for giving money to your local church. (They'd recommend you give to TWI, but no one kicked you out if you didn't.) I bought plenty of Christian books from other sources. So I think your argument that "the JW's wouldn't let you listen to someone else" doesn't hold up. I don't know what the JW's will or won't do -- but I know that TWI used to let you do what you wanted! If I had just been through watching Craig dance around in a leotard as if he was a star, then hearing the BOT agree with Geer that they needed to completely change their ways, then hardly hear from Craig for 3 years, AND knowing that every time I had an important question about the ministry that I would be kept in the dark, well yeah, I would have had a hard time saying that I would stand with Craig, too!!! Shaz

Hi, LLP, long time no see! I think nknative was talking about non-grad locals, not grads who are required to attend from area fellowships. Do you see new visitors at each HQ meeting, or always the same faces? My understanding was that they no longer have an open door at The Way, except for specific times when they hold events for outsiders. Perhaps you can shed some light on this aspect. Regards, Shaz

Dear Kevlar, I was into origami, and was very tempted, at times...! "Fluffy," Dot??? Oy, now I know what I will NOT name my next pet! Shaz

Goey, Tom, and Dot, that is SO gross, ROFL!!!! I will never look at a fridge the same way ever again.... Dear Tom, When I was in-rez, I just chalked up all that caca to being taught attention to details. I thought it was being exaggerated on purpose to help us be aware of how we could bless people in the little things when we were "on the field." I had the attitude of, "I paid for this program, I should accept what they're trying to teach me." And for the most part, I did. But heck, I was trained as a dancer my whole life. I had just come from 4 years of dance training at the college level. It is a very disciplined profession. Teachers were authority figures to be obeyed. Attention to details didn't scare me. But I was amazed to hear (mostly online, since I was out not long after my in-rez year) how much of the Corps training suddenly became the only godly way to do things for everybody in TWI. People being reproved for not stringing chairs, and worse, leaders seeing devil spirits behind every unstrung chair. It was the nth degree of what I had seen at Rome City, where a few elder Corps enjoyed lording their knowledge and status over younger Corps. Some, having been abused, wanted to abuse others. IMHO, Shaz

HI MCarroll,and welcome! One of the things that TWI put in our heads is the idea that everything and everybody is either white or black, godly or devilish. If devilish, TWI wrote them off without a backward glance. (I guess it was just too much work to help someone, when there were other people to fleece, er, believers to love!) I have found instead that most people try to do good most of the time. Most of us are just bound by our emotional needs. Knowing that makes most of the little foibles in people totally forgiveable, including my own. I try to appreciate others for their uniqueness -- if they were all like me, God help us all! :D--> I draw the line when something someone does harms another, but otherwise, to each his own. Regards, Shaz

Hi JoeB, If your TWI involvement has become a starting point for your spiritual growth, that's great! You made something that was created for the wrong reasons into something good for your life. That speaks well of you, not necessarily of TWI. Welcome to the 'Spot! Shaz

Yes, someone showed the Corps how to "jet pack" clothing, thinking that these future leaders would be on the road a lot, and could use some helpful information on how to pack quickly so that your stuff wouldn't need ironing. T-shirts were to be rolled up -- voil?no wrinkles. Somehow, it went from there to "there is only one right way to fold t-shirts." Incredible. Likewise, the hanging of the toilet paper. My guess (I don't know) is that someone who was a little, er, anal, decided that he liked the way it was done in fancy hotels. Corps housekeeping crews were taught to have the end of the roll hang over the top, then to fold the end into a triangle. 'Course, the person who did the folding had just finished back-flushing the toilet....yuk! Somehow, the Corps in-rez standard became the godly standard, and anything less was considered ungodly. Regards, Shaz

Thanks, Mo! ((((((((((Mo)))))))))) Some people have horrendous childhood experiences, and vow that they will never perpetuate the abuse. They become empathetic to the needs of others. Some never reconcile their past, and may become victims again. Some internalize their anger, and become depressed. There are probably other reactions to abuse, as well as combinations of these, as well. But there is another reaction to abuse, based on a view that the world is a hostile place, and take what you can before they take from you, abuse who you can because they don't care about you. It is the realm of the personality disordered, the narcissist and the sociopath. They become very adept at playing the game, saying and doing many of the right things, so that they are not suspect. How many times does a neighbor of a mass murderer say, "But he was a nice man, so quiet, we never knew....?" The face of evil is not like on the movie of the week: snarling, drooling, an evil glint in the eye. The face of evil is smiling, confident, but lying with impugnity. The face of evil is convinced he is entitled. Regards, Shaz

Oh yeah, and TWI had its own little variation on the guilt trip... "If only I had been more in fellowship with Father, I would have heard His still, small voice and this never would have happened...." Regards, Shaz

Dear Dot, Thank you very much for your last few posts. Please chack your PTs. Shaz

Dear mj, I understood you meant that it is the people who are happy in TWI themselves who think, "The Way is so much better now. All the bad people are gone. They should have never been in The Way in the first place." 'Course, you could tell them that all the "bad" people, the perpetrators of abuse, are NOT gone. The ones who are still in power have been in power for years, and have not made any public or private apologies, which would be the Christian thing to do. You could tell them that there are still lawsuits being fought. You could tell them that access to a burial site is restricted. You could ask why promises that were made (Corps chalet, for starters) were never kept. You could ask a lot of things, if you believed only half of what is written on these boards. But I don't think that GS is here for the convinced. It is here for the person who wants to know the truth of what happened. So many people, all different parts of the country, different walks of life, most don't know each other, coming here with similar stories about their involvement in that organization. Pretty powerful, if you ask me. Regards, Shaz

Dear mj, You have kept in touch with some of the people still in TWI or its offshoots. Good -- being able to look someone in the eye can be very helpful. Being there and loving a person who still wants to stay in such a group is a good thing to do. No disagreement there. But I have also seen that posting here has helped, too. It helped me, by validating my experience (hearing that other people experienced similar things), and by putting together a history of what was going on behind the scenes in TWI that I had no idea about (so I know that, for me, leaving was the best thing I could have done). And I have heard from others that they have been helped, too. And 'scuse me, but I can't let you say this unchallenged... My understanding from their story is that, when they found out what was happening, they DID speak out. They were the whistle blowers, and they got punished for it, when they should have been thanked and commended. They are now going out on a limb again (and catching flak for it) to prevent that jerk or others of his ilk from doing it yet again.You have a problem with that??? Regards, Shaz (Who blew the whistle once herself, on the job, and was forced out of the job for it.)

Dear mj, Not bitter, just telling the truth. Something we were often not supposed to do in TWI, as it might mean "speaking a negative." Dear Mo, My deepest thanks for your post. Regards, Shaz

Dear Mo, I noticed that CW just brought her thread back up, on the child molestations that happened in Alaska. Are there any facts that you would like to add? I think it is one of the more important things that has been discussed of late. Regards, Shaz

Hi, Catcup! Nice to see you posting again. I hope school is going well for you. Some of the better information on GS of late has been the "Child Abuse in TWI" thread (I see CW has just brought it back up -- thanks!). Pedophiles in TWI leadership -- they get moved, whistleblowers get attacked. Not only can you hear some pretty hairy stories there, but you can see what Dot was talking about when nay-sayers come into a thread to say "it wasn't really that bad, now, was it." It can wear a person down, especially when it is an event that they emotionally suffered from. I also like Raf's "Actual Errors" thread. And Greasespot has looked at VP's plagiarism pretty closely. Also some stuff on the Peeler lawsuit and the personality disorders of the MOGs. But I agree -- the best work we do is when we can recount first-hand the evils of TWI. I would not want some of you who were witnesses to those things to be stuck re-living the past. I hope that you are able to go on and live a great life, because that is the best revenge for being called a "greasespot at midnight," and because it is best for you. But I welcome you guys coming back here every now and then to tell it like it was, because there are newbies and seekers who need to know. "Tell it again, for someone needs it..." (ROFL, I couldn't help it!) Regards, Shaz

Dear mj, For myself, I had no idea that joining the Corps would mean a lifetime commitment to jump whenever a TWI leader said "jump." In fact, I went in for the 2-year Recognized thing specifically because I didn't want any long-term thing. Imagine my surprise when some LC I'd never met called me in to say he wanted to to an "evaluation" of my year after graduation, then gave me a "Redeem the Time" sheet to fill out. When I pointed out that I had graduated Recognized (had the diploma and everything), the LC said, "Doctor never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps." First I'd heard of it! I politely refused to be evaluated. I probably should have told him where to stuff it instead! Yes, some Corps went into it for the power, others really wanted to be their best for God. We were tricked. Dear Socks, YOU did Variation #2???? ???? Way to go, dude. You must have been more spiritual than I. Or at least more flexible! Dancingly, Shaz

Dear vickles, I think you've got smarts where it counts. And all the knowledge of how-many-times-"Doctor"-said-stuff is just a sounding brass, and a tinkling cymbal.Regards, Shaz

Mike, How dishonest! You said, speaking to Oldiesman... Mike, just so I am sure that you understand what I meant (and I think you understood me perfectly well the first time!), I will restate my position:Mike, your statement that tithing today is mastering the PFAL books is absurd, if you believe VPW's writings to be true, as your belief is contrary to what VPW wrote in CSBP. And if you want to split hairs, your phrase "so he can be seen" grammatically refers to Wierwille, the last person you spoke of by name. I don't think you meant to say, "Master PFAL so WIERWILLE can be seen," so I didn't include that in the discussion. It would have been a red herring. You, on the other hand, LOVED to throw in the red herrings and the long-winded reply, and avoid facing the point. Shaz

Thank you, Mike. (Especially good of you to reconsider, since Paw already told you he was going to put you there in the future anyway....) ;)--> Shaz

Thanks, Paw!!!! My understanding was that the "About The Way" forum was for discussions about what happened in TWI, the actions of Wayfers, particularly leadership, especially the BOT/BOD. Those actions were often because of what we were taught, and just as often in spite of what we were taught. Any discussion of doctrine is only used to understand the activity. If the purpose of a thread (such as Mike's) is to disseminate a doctrinal point of view, and any discussion of TWI activities is secondary to the purpose of expounding on a religious point of view, then that thread should be moved to Doctrinal. I liken it to another website I visit, on Lyme disease. There is a discussion forum for Medical Questions, and another for General Discussion. If someone poses a non-medical topic in Medical, they are politely reminded to move it to General, so that those who really need medical info will have their post stay on the front page to get it seen and answered. I think one of the best things that the "About The Way" forum does is help those that are hurting or confused about their TWI experience. I hope that those topics would have their time on page one, without being bumped prematurely by threads that don't belong. Thanks for all you do, Paw, I know it ain't easy! Shaz

Mike, You said, "See what happens when you use conjecture to guide your thinking? You didn’t read it carefully. There are lots of things that need to happen, and receiving the perfectly renewed mind is one, and that’s a slow deal." Says you, based on conjecture. Who says a perfectly renewed mind is a requirement? You do. Who says that "phases" are not implied in the list of end time events given by VP? You do. Who says that Jesus will use a PFAL book to teach from at the gathering together? You do. I simply don't see the same things you took 6 years to wrench out of that passage of PFAL, and it obviously isn't in the Bible. I also don't see proof of Sun Myung Moon being the Second Coming based on a few passages of scripture, but his followers do, based on their many years of wrenching scripture. So sorry, but your 6-year resumé doesn't impress me. Your logic is just flawed, based on conjecture and personal revelation. The scriptures state that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God. Obviously a figure of speech indicating a closeness and a preferred relationship. My Bible says (and VPW quotes) that Jesus always did his Father's will. Is that a perfectly renewed mind? If Jesus needs to know anything, can't he ask God? You said, "Remember how Dr used to say at the Rock of Ages that it was a dress rehearsal for the Gathering Together?" Yes, I do. He said it was because of the love that was shared, not the teachings. We also had refreshments, entertainment, the book store, and Bless Patrol, but I don't think you mean to imply that those will be a part of the Appearing Administration also! You also said... Uh, didn't God give him a name, didn't he earn a name, etc. etc.? And who says he "has to be" born again? You do -- I don't see it in scripture, nor in PFAL. There are a couple of areas in which he is obviously NOT like us, and I don't have to have "residual trinitarianism" or TVT brainwashing OR cultural inundation to see it. Jesus was born divinely -- I wasn't. Jesus always did the Father's will. I don't. Jesus was raised bodily, and resurrected. I wasn't, or at least, not yet. Jesus sits at God's right hand -- I do through him, he doesn't through me.You said... Sorry, don't have the books in front of me any more, nor do I want to. Yet for all that, my "recall" hasn't been too shabby, by your own admission.You said... Nope, I never said that receiving pneuma hagion was the ultimate end all. Yet you were the one who said that Jesus needed to get born again à la Pentecost.Your statement that tithing today is studying PFAL is just absurd. You also said...

Thanks so much, everybody. Truth be told, I always kinda wondered why people celebrated their birthdays -- after all, it wasn't THEIR fault :D--> ! But this year's has been full of sweetness from people letting me know that I made a small difference in their lives, which means so much to me as I look back on what I have and haven't accomplished in my life so far. Highlights... ...Going to NYC with my bf to see "Stomp" and going out to eat in a little Polish neighborhood restaurant right near where I went to college, and buying my favorite scent in a little shop that was still there! ...Having my youngest kid sneak around trying to conceal the present he bought me himself. ..Having my oldest kid leave me a phone message, her personalized version of the birthday song. ...Getting an email from my college buddy Plots and an online girlfriend. ...Buying a small cake with chocolate fudge frosting, and eating a BIG slice! Yummm...urp! ...Hearing from all of you -- thanks, from the bottom of my ex-TWI heart! Have some cake, be my guest, Shaz

Mike, Okay, 4 pages of posts since I last looked have yielded some, er, weird moments, to say the least... Before I comment, let me say that I have not a shred of "residual trinitarianism," as you call it. I left the organized church when I was 10 years old, having never received any schooling in the Trinity. I had no big problem accepting Jesus Christ as not being God, although I have entertained discussions over the years as to the veracity of my view. I have noted that many church-going Christians do not believe in it, either. However, your view that Christ will be teaching us out of the PFAL book during he Appearing Administration has no basis in scripture OR in PFAL. VPW's quote about a "series of events" during that time are exactly the ones he then lists: the appearing for his saints, the events of Revelation, and the appearing with his saints. THAT is a series of events. Anything else is just conjecture.Mike on Jesus being born again... I don't know what he knows or doesn't know -- I would think that if he doesn't know something, he asks the guy on his left, GOD! I also recall that the Bible AND PFAL both taught us that the new birth was a spiritual birth, the giving of holy spirit, and that was meant to be a token of the better thing (Eph. 1:13-14). Jesus already got the better thing, having already been raised, our firstfruits, as Tom said (and you disparaged).Mike on lying... Frankly, Mike, your lengthy and superfluous posts have led me to believe that YOU do not have a coherent story to tell. Your quote above sounds like YOU. Then you add in that both VPW and Jesus Chris taught you. So PFAL is only a jumping off point for what you want to tell people? You want to impart the personal revelations that Christ gave you?Mike on ABS... Methinks they cut you short, because they didn't want to go around and around with you on the very doctrines you have been trying to espouse on GSpot. Okay, I'll bite. How do you tithe to Christ himself? Do you throw it up in the air, and what he catches he keeps??Mike on Tom... Nice, Mike -- exactly the sort of thing you say you hate in others, you do yourself. I actually find Tom to be a poster who likes to diffuse tensions when they get out of bounds. And when he decides to say something of substance, he often reveals that he knows precisely what is being talked about.For me, Mike, I care little about what the next administration is going to be like. It is my hope that there will be one, on the order of that predicted in the Bible. Meantime, I am concentrating on improving the quality of what I do in THIS life, because it is the only one of this life that I get, and time is short. And the greatest thing that will continue in this life AND the next is love. Check this out, Mike -- VPW quoted it, so you gotta respect it (!), "Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail, whether there be tongues, they shall cease...but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away...then I shall know even as also I am known...." That is plenty for me to work on. Shaz

Nice post, Trefor. I liked the conservative article very much. dmiller, you said, "The line has to be drawn somewhere." Why draw it here, then? Did you get bent out of shape about people who marry for money? Or people who marry and do not plan to have children? Or people who do not take their marriage vows seriously, and pop in and out of marriage like it was a revolving door? Do you want to enact laws to stop these kinds of behaviors? Now we have some people who want the freedom to express their commitment legally. They want the ability to legally say, "This is my spouse." They want to be able to make decisions for their loved one, should that person become incapacitated before giving power of attorney. They want to be able to have access to the same legal right to inheritance as any other couple. How is gay civil marriage going to degrade your right to think of marriage however you want, and how would it interfere with your right to express that definition in a religious ceremony of your choice? Regards, Shaz

Quite possibly, JT. The girl was Apprentice Corps at the time, then went in-res. I heard there was some interest in what she had done with her play, and that it had been performed by others since. LOL, I just had a couple of JW's come to my door to witness, with that combination of embarrassment and religious determination in their smiles and voices. How well I know the feeling from days past! Regards, Shaz