shazdancer

Oh sheesh, Oldies, that was not how I felt about it at all! (I thought I just said that.) Lordy, was I the only one in TWI that truly wanted to help others by having a greater spiritual knowledge? I think not. The only thing that kept that nametag poking holes in my blouse was that VP said we needed to wear them. It was his caste system, not mine. Shaz

HI all, Nah, my nametag was just a reminder of the carrot-before-the-horse method of TWI. You would really learn spiritual matters if you take PFAL...the intermediate class...the advanced class...go WOW...go Corps. I finally got to Corps, though it wasn't my preference (precisely because I didn't want to be known by a nametag!). After a year, I still didn't feel any more knowledgeable spiritually, and caught myself thinking, "Maybe getting ordained is where you learn all the heavy revvy stuff..." That's about the time I got a clue. Nobody at the top level was as spiritual as they were trying to get us to believe. Regards, Shaz

Financial abuse was definitely in play here. Wierwille had managed to achieve great wealth, but because it was all tied up in the organization, she would have no access to it without his approval.

Dear waterbuffalo, I was thinking more in terms of the 1940's through the early 1960's. But even so, having been divorced myself in the mid-80's, I experienced a few jerks with that mindset, so I know it was still out there.... And no, she would not necessarily have been well-provided for in a divorce. Wierwille earned a small salary from TWI. The benefits (the plane, motorcoach, housekeeping, etc.) were all picked up by the organization. Regards, Shaz

Dear waterbuffalo, Although I don't believe that an alcoholic's spouse is automatically a co-dependent, I agree with you, it could explain a lot. Tha co-dependent finds their own identity and fulfillment in being the rescuer of the alcoholic. Did Mrs. Wierwille feel that her mission was to keep the MOG together enough to get his message out to the world? Very sad. Shaz

Dear Danny, I also wonder how much Mrs. Wierwille believed in what VP was trying to do . Did she think it was a scam? Did she think he was the MOGFODAT, but with human frailties? Or somewhere in between? I think there was a lot more going on in her decision to stay than just a love of high living, although that may have played a part. In her generation, divorce was considered a failure on the part of the woman. Divorced women were looked on as tramps. She would also be leaving a minister of the church, possibly, in her mind, the MOG. She must have worried how she would support herself and her children. I just don't think it was an easy decision. Regards, Shaz

Oldies, when I first started attending the "groovy Christian" church in Rye, I was too young to drive. My parents didn't especially support my involvement. A college-aged believer drove a half-hour out of his way to get me, back in the other direction to Rye 1 hour, back out to the boonies to drop me off, then finally home. All with a smile and a "God bless." Should I have hitched??? As I got older, I tried to say yes to helping others in TWI, when I could. It just made sense to me to be more Christ-like. Even when I was in, it made more sense to help than to say "you gotta believe" to a person in need. Teach 'em when the crisis is past, if you want. For example, a girl in my Twig called to say she had a toothache, and was supposed to ride her bike home from work in the Arizona heat. I dropped what I was doing and rushed to meet her partway, and give her a ride. Hey, if your tooth hurts, I think it would be difficult, not to mention cruel, to hear about how you have to "get your believing up." Maybe there's more than one way to minister healing. The members of the BOT used to carry around wads of cash in their pockets, and hand it out if they felt someone had a need. It was ABS money, so it didn't hurt them to give it, and it was the right thing to do. Give to charities? Nah, I also remember being taught that such groups were "good," but giving to TWI was "best." I have changed since. Regards, Shaz

Dear WWJLA (I love that handle!), You are early in your relationship, so I hope you're not jumping the gun to consider wedding bells just yet. And I agree with the posts above that said if you want to win him over to Christianity, or you think of yourself as somehow better because you are a Christian, then you'd better find another Christian to hitch to, as it would be unfair to this guy. If you accepted the precepts of The Way at one time, then be sure you have settled some things before you start looking to involve someone else in a significant way. TWI made some pretty strange demands at times. They were also good at demeaning people. You may not have confronted every ghost of your past before saying "I do," but think about what you will and will not put up with in another person. My "significant other" is Jewish, Reform but not very observant. We have been together for 4 years. We have had some humdinger arguments (and some great reconciliations ;)--> ), but never about religious belief. I respect where he is coming from, and would never presume to think that I have the cornerstone on truth. He is a good man, an intelligent man, a humorous man, and a man with a huge soft spot for me. What's not to love? :D--> Our biggest asset is that we can talk to each other. And he plays a mean game of Scrabble! So keep having fun, keep talking, and think about who you are at this point in your life. Be happy with yourself, and you will be happy with or without another. Regards, Shaz

Dear WW, Oh sheesh, I didn't say my username?? LOL! You musta been thinkin' "who the f*** IS this talkative chick...?" Oy, my bf loves to eat out, especially at little cheap home-cooking places. (I can't tell you how many diners we've been in!) But it's been so long since I was a Big Apple resident that I have no clue where the food is. (He's found a couple of places.) So gimme a couple of weeks, and maybe then we can arrange to come down to Manhattan and visit. Hey, Minnesotans, I hope you have a blast. Where else can you say something like "I got him in the Word," and have everyone know exactly what you're talking about? Regards, Shaz

Aah, New Yawkuhs, da greatest! ;)--> Shaz

Aw, Raf! You're just afraid WW said something about YOU, lol! Doing damage control? Don't worry, you got off unscathed. Sounds like you were a big hit at the wedding. ;)--> Shaz

Hi everybody! I just wanted to say thank you to everybody for coming out to an impromptu meeting of a few of us Greasespotters in Connecticut. Steve! was able to contact Paw, Parsley, and Word Wolf to join us for a nice Chinese dinner. You guys were terrific! Steve! -- bring chinners and the kids out for the weekend, and we'll do something, if we're around Paw and Parsley -- keep in touch, I'd enjoy hanging out with you in NYC sometime. I'll introduce you to the word geeks playing Scrabble in Washington Square Park...! Word Wolf -- I love your warped sense of humor, something that doesn't always come across in your posts. You are truly a sick human being -- glad to have met you! I am now the proud owner of one of the coveted GresespotCafe shirts -- thanks so much, Paw! I will worship it, er, wear it with pride, and giggles. It hit me last night that TWI had so many just plain GOOD people involved in their little organization. Such a shame that they blew it so badly. Regards to you all, Shaz PS Mike -- were your ears ringing last night??

LOL, TWI-ers were talking about "the faces of the deep" theories back in the seventies, trying to put the verses together. It cracks me up that all that mental gymnastics made its way into a foundational class! Shaz

Dear Digi, Let's see, we were taught that you can't tell if someone's possessed without operating the manifestation of discerning of spirits. If God doesn't tell you, then you don't know. If God does tell you, there has to be a profit in telling you -- it seemed to follow that you could then cast out the devil(s). Yet, people in TWI were all the time pointing out that so-and-so was possessed, merely to show how "spiritually aware" they were. No desire (and often no opportunity) to help said possessed person. No good reason to need to know. Just showing off. Then there's another thing. We were taught that "greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." So what is all this "stay away from them, they're possessed" stuff about? If we're possessed, what are they afraid of? Kinda makes you want to walk up to an innie and say "BOO!" :)--> Shaz

Dear Shellon, I have a big sticker in my Bible that TWI printed, listing what they feel are the 5 "crowns," or rewards for believers at the bema: THE CROWN INCORRUPTIBLE -- is received for exercising self-control in all disciplined training (whatever THAT means!;)-->) THE CROWN OF LIFE -- is received for standing approved before God by rightly dividing his Word in our lives (all the time? some of the time? how about once by mistake?) THE CROWN OF REJOICING -- is received for winning people to the Lord Jesus Christ after we have rightly divided the Word (so it doesn't count if you were Catholic and brought your friend to Sunday school?!) THE CROWN OF GLORY -- is received by leaders in the body for feeding God's people with His Word (am I only a leader if I run a Twig?) THE CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS -- is available to all born-again believers who love his appearing (this one's a freebie, but you schmucks have to work for the rest, sorry) I remember seeing a little "crown counting" going on when I was in. So sad that that branch leader thought he would somehow comfort you -- oh good, I'm glad he was around long enough to get everything... --> TWI became a one-upmanship by works -- not for salvation, but for crowns! Regards, Shaz

Yeah, dmiller, you sure didn't want to be a slave to the winter cold! Brrr, Shaz

Dear imbus, A couple of pages ago, you depicted Oldiesman as having "some serious behavior issues before TWI and that TWI was a place to comfortably hide or act out on your stuff." OM's issues aside, I do think that there were people with personality problems that could indulge in them with impunity in TWI. The child abuser in Alaska, for example. The overbearing husbands who enjoyed the justification for lording it over their wives. The min-MOGs who (already having a tendancy to act out) modeled their temper tantrums after Wierwille and Martindale. Perhaps we are expecting too much of a little Bible organization to root out evil in all of its forms throughout the organization, but I think it is certainly reasonable to expect the top leaders (BOT, Limb, department heads) to have upright characters -- i.e., exhibit moral behavior most of the time, and refrain from heinous activity, and for them to screen their immediate subordinates, who would in turn screen theirs. Regards, Shaz

Dear Hope, I think one of the biggest abuse promoters was the arrogance. Not just that we supposedly knew more about the Bible than anybody else, but that the BEST thing we could do for someone else was to "speak the Word" to them. Instant problem resolution. Not empathize with them, not give them a helping hand, but tell them off. In love, of course! And if they didn't get all fixed right away, we walked away from them. They were "tripped out." They were "off the Word." We were soooo much better than they. No wonder everyone was afraid to admit to any problems. Who wanted to be lectured to when they were in the midst of suffering? In the gospels, however, it was said of Jesus that his "bowels moved" for people. That speaks to me. He felt so strongly for people and their troubles, his guts churned. He listened to them, he partied with them, he cried with them. Sounds messy. Sounds wonderful. Regards, Shaz

And I WAS civil. And you ignored the bulk of my post. AND I said that you didn't take responsibility for your action IN PRINT, but imbus did. So whine all you want when someone (gasp!) calls you a name, when what you said to HER was despicable. Shaz

Perhaps apologizing to Mo would help.

Many thanks to everyone for their supportive posts on behalf of imbus. I admire her courage for wanting to support the theme of this thread with her own story. It is very hard to write and see your story in print, because you have to relive it. Trust me, it is no fun. Oldies, As others have said, I also see imbus' regret throughout her post on the incident. I see more angst in what she wrote than in what you wrote about having a romp with a Corps girl who asked you to sponsor her the next day. I didn't hear YOU take "personal responsibility," but I heard it in imbus. You want to point out the difference between "fornication" and "adultery," but I see a different HUGE discrepancy between your incident and hers. In imbus' account, the other party was a trusted leader. Let me give you a lesser look at what happens when a person in authority abuses his power. I was at a big event -- maybe it was the Rock, I don't recall anymore. I saw Wierwille and Howard. Gee, I'm so thankful for the BOT's stand on the Word. So glad they run the organization that set me free. Let me give them a kiss and a hug. When I get to Howard, he sticks his tongue in my mouth. What to think? If it had been any other schlub I'd just met, I'd have thought he was a jerk, and stayed away from him. Maybe some would have slapped his face, or made a rude remark. But I was young and naive, and THIS WAS WIERWILLE'S RIGHT-HAND MAN. My immediate response was to go blank. The action (sexual aggression) didn't fit with the image (man of God). In my mind, I began to make excuses for him. (Don't think evil of your brother in Christ, ya know.) Maybe his mama didn't teach him how to kiss politely. Maybe he did it by accident! Yeah, that was what I was thinking. Now try and think of what it would be like for a young follower with a trusted reverend. He doesn't just one day drop his drawers and say, "here." No, it's after lots of sweet times of working together, hugs, counseling, back rubs, laughing together, and sharing hearts together. A relationship of trust is built. Perhaps the girl is even made to feel that she caused the incident somehow. Oldies, experts in the field of psychology equate sexual abuse by a pastor with INCEST. The trauma faced by the one abused is the same. The confusion, the guilt, the betrayal -- the same. Do you get it yet? Shaz

Funny, eagle! Born to live, born again to backflush... Regards, Shaz

((((((((imbus))))))))) You said he was one of the most loving men you knew. THAT'S how they were able to trick people. They often knew to look for the most sincere, giving, innocent people they could. That's what makes me sad, and that's what makes me angry. The sweet, sincere people should have been the ones most protected in a Godly organization. Yet they were often the ones most exploited. Regards, Shaz

Dear Oldies, By "redirecting," I think JT meant that you were redirecting the attention away from the beginning of this thread, which was about examining the actions of Wierwille and Martindale in the light of narcissistic behavior. (I for one don't mind that you took a little jog to the side, as you made some points worth looking at.) I noticed you remarked earlier I guess you don't feel you were conned, Oldies. If you think that Wierwille was one of "God's people working to help you find it," I would disagree with you, because I think that Wierwille only used the things of God to get to the things he wanted -- wealth, sex, adulation, POWER. In using the things of God, he taught enough Bible to reach you, me, and many others. I am glad you took the good and left the rest. Others were not so lucky.As to Wierwille and Martindale being "evil narcissistic monsters who seduce," I think that is mostly true. Their works bear this out. Take Wierwille and the sexual abuse, for one example: It was adultery, betraying his wife and his marriage vows He went after young women, sometimes minors, the age of his own daughter, and should have thought of those women as his daughters (many looked on him as a father figure) He was a minister, and as such should not have taken advantage of his position -- he should have left those women alone, even if every one of them threw themselves at him (and they most certainly didn't!) He used the Bible to seduce, making it extremely difficult for those women to trust the Bible or men ever again. I only differ with you if you think that to be a "monster" one must be evil continuously. Not so. Evil people have a face of kindness, which is what makes them so confusing. Narcissists do kind things at times, and justify to themselves that they are good. Remember my grammatically incorrect statement, "the face of evil is convinced he is entitled?" I hope you get what I meant -- narcissists feel entitled to take from others, because they see others as beneath them, and as adversaries. They don't empathize with the hurt they cause, but they're sad when they get caught. Dot Matrix said that something on another thread that hit home with me. To paraphrase her: "Mrs. Lincoln, your husband just got shot, but how did you like the play?" To put you into that picture, I would say, "So, theatre-goer, how was the play? Did you like John Wilkes Booth?" Perhaps to you, the play's the thing (the teaching of the Bible was paramount). To me, the fact that people were gravely abused in this life outweighs any good done toward the hope of eternal life. Regards, Shaz

That anybody told Loy that he could pull off being a dancer, let alone the lead, has to be the biggest piece of hooey there was!