shazdancer

Thanks, Oak. Sunesis, on another thread, mentions cutting checks for BOD members who requested money for personal shopping. That alone should have been enough to get them in trouble with the IRS right there. If anybody reported it. I wonder if that practice still goes on.... WayGB, what can you tell us?

Mike, I gotta say this to you... ...great post. ;)--> Shaz

Dear sky4it, you said Excellent observation! I also have had a couple of exchanges of letters with TWI leaders. One was with VPW, in response to a form letter he sent to those Corps who did not attend Corps Week that year. He asked something like, "What did I do wrong?" So I very respectfully told him. I explained how I felt I had been abandoned across the country from my family, and away from the care of other believers, even though I had done nothing wrong. (It was because of my husband's drinking that we were assigned where we were.) Wierwille himself had promised help for my husband, but had not provided it. I had two young children, and no money.One would have thought the "Christian" response would be to acknowledge the hurt, or to encourage my continued stand for God. Nah. Wierwille just scribbled across the top of the letter that I was "bitter." What an easy way to dismiss the pain of another, and hard to disprove. Regards, Shaz

Dear Steve!, Yeah, I've probably started fewer than five threads in all my time on Waydale/Greasespot. Guess I don't have an original thought in my head! ;)--> One'a these days, I'll post my story, and that will be such a rant that I'll get NO responses, lol! Dear pj, Thanks for the documentation. For how long was TWI without tax-exempt status? I also see something interesting that they admitted to in that document. Right after saying how little they paid their employees, they say, "It paid Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille, its founder and president, $ 5,200 as a trustee." Wow, my understanding is that a member of the board of directors is not allowed to be paid ANYTHING for being a member of the board. (He can be paid for services rendered to the organization, but not for sitting on the board.) Maybe someone should be jumping on THAT, since it is documented by TWI. Dear Lightside, Yes, I'd like to hear if anyone knows if TWI got nailed on the Hayes Gahagan thing. For those who may not know, Hayes was a PFAL grad (did he go any higher than that? I don't know) who was state senator in Maine. Perhaps you can fill in more of the details -- did he run for federal office? I remember Wierwille speaking from the stage in endorsement of his campaign. Oopsie, that's a blatant violation of the 501©(3) federal laws governing not-for-profit organizations. The organization cannot endorse a political candidate, and certainly can't contribute organization monies or services to one. Another big problem I have with TWI as an organization is the large amount of money that seems to be carried over from year to year. My understanding is that the money is supposed to be put back into the organization. Does anyone know what percentage of donations are allowed to be carried over? Finally, I have a BIG problem with the lavish lifestyle of the BOD. It is just like being paid for being a board member. I think a good case could be made that the methods used for housing the BOD (the "Corps Chalet," the Wierwille home), transporting them (private plane, motor coach), and personal services (maid service, special meals, etc.) far exceeded what was necessary to provide the needed services to the followers, and essentially constituted payment to the BOD. (For example, other employees did not receive the same benefits.) Many of the same benefits are enjoyed by the BOD and a chosen few to this day. Hey, IRS, Shaz

Hi, everybody! I just happened across the book Snapped today, and lo and behold, we were in there! (I always got a kick out of looking for TWI's inclusion in the anti-cult books, even when I was in I used to check.) Anyway, the book mentions that TWI lost its tax-exempt status for a short time in 1985 after Wierwille died. I was already out by then. Could you all tell me what the IRS snag was about (I think I can guess), and what was/is your opinion on it? What were the faithful innies who were giving their abs told it was about? Thanks, Shaz

Thanks, Raf and Steve, I fixed the post. I had been told by someone long ago that CES went back to believing in the Trinity. My post was wrong. Sorry. Regards, Shaz Serves me right for not reading the Doctrinal Forum....

Dear John, Welcome to Greasespot! sky4it has a point, although I wouldn't have stated it quite so harshly. What did we learn from PFAL that hadn't been taught for centuries? The Word of God is the Will of God -- hmm, basic fundamentalist doctrine. The Law of Believing -- ruined many lives, and almost wrecked mine How the Bible Interprets Itself -- a basic course in how to read ANY book Four Crucified -- Bullinger For This Purpose Was I Spared -- your group throws that one out How to be Born Again -- see any born-again church Renew the Mind -- ditto Speaking in Tongues -- Oral Roberts had that one packaged as neatly as Wierwille. T.I.P. -- Your group completely revamps much of what was taught in the Intermediate Class. JC Not God -- oopsie, you guys don't teach that, either -- correction (thanks, Raf), you DO teach JC is Not God, making this probably the most important doctrine you brought with you from TWI (Now, as far as being a one-stop, package deal, I would also like to mention that B.G.Leonard had his class first and taught it to Wierwille, who re-labelled that package PFAL.) So if we throw out the parts of PFAL that you do not adhere to, there is not much left that can't be found in any evangelical church with a charismatic renewal element, the type of church that was coming of age at the same time TWI gained its biggest following. And the ministries of Oral Roberts and B.G.Leonard, et al, certainly surfaced before Wierwille, as well as Bullinger, who published in the late 1800's. There are a couple of other things in your post here that bug me a bit, but perhaps I am just nit-picking. You can respond here, or email me at shazdancer@danceart.net (this email is on my profile). We know each other from your NY days in TWI, and I doubt it would take much prodding to jog your memory. Regards, Shaz

Okay, Radar, now I'm confused. LCM taught that the Word was over the world, right? God had revealed it to him. Everybody that was going to believe had believed already. Okay, so how could God give a different punishment to those who did not hear (who wouldn't have believed if they DID hear) than to those who DID hear, and likewise rejected Christ? God would be unjust to do that. And witnessing would be cruel. ("Don't tell me about that guy! I'm holding my ears. LA-LA-LA...!") Laughing now, and shaking my head, Shaz

Of course they went back into cult-running mode, Satori. (Welcome back, BTW.) They're fired from TWI, the only decent job they've had. They think, "What will I do now? How will I earn a living? What am I good at?" Well, JL was good at leading a religious group. What else was he gonna do, flip burgers or deliver newspapers? Then he couldn't wear those spiffy three-piece suits.... Regards, Shaz

Sadly, Oldies, I think you are right that it would not have made a difference if Igotout and Hope had gone to Headquarters at Rosie's invitation. I found out about the TWI-II mindset the hard way, by marrying someone who was in after I'd been out for over 5 years. It wasn't "good versus best" in every decision, but rather "devil spirits versus God." Extreme black and white. Leaders are right because they are leaders. To disagree was to fight with God. I gave TWI and Wierwille "one more chance," willingly, a lot of times. I was in for 12 years, and probably 3 of those were "one more chance" years. I gave the ex almost 10 "one more chance" years. I would not wish the same on Hope and Igotout. I think they withstood it all enough. Regards, Shaz

I dunno, ex10, maybe that explains why your head can spin all the way around.... ;)--> Shaz

Dear Cowgirl, One more possibility -- Lyme disease. Any other symptoms, even if they seem unrelated? Cognitive problems like forgetting names, mixing words, forgetting where you are, "brain fog," or inability to do math problems have all been documented in people with Lyme. Other systems can be affected as well -- symptoms as diverse as heart palpitations, headache, numbness/tingling, depression, low-grade fever, stomach problems, hallucinations, fatigue, and many more, may all point to Lyme disease. Some people get a few symptoms, some get a lot. People with Lyme have been misdiagnosed with ALS, CFS, fibromyalgia, Parkinson's, schizophrenia, and autoimmune disorder. They all improved with a strong course of antibiotics. I have Lyme, and I get the "forget where I am for a few seconds" thing. Could it be the Lyme? Could it be perimenopause? TIA (trans-ischemic attack, or mini-stroke)? Beats me. They haven't gotten worse, they are just unsettling when they happen. I have learned to just chill and let my brain get back on track on its own. I know this all sounds like such a downer, but maybe someone will recognize themselves in our posts and seek help. Take care, Shaz

I absolutely agree, exy. Sometimes, we're lucky enough to connect with good relationships post-abuse, but the point is, we who have been used to emotional abuse in the name of love/God can be blind to the signs of it when we encounter it elsewhere. Regards, Shaz

Scrabble! This year's National Scrabble Championship will be in New Orleans. here's a peek If you are there that weekend, poke your nose in, just to see how seriously geeky it really is. They may have a viewing area, especially for the championship rounds, which will be taped by ESPN. Otherwise, you will not be allowed to look over people's shoulders -- they don't like it. I won't be going, too expensive. Have fun, stay cool, Shaz

Yeah, houseisarockin, there it is. "I'm gonna get this off my chest, and you are supposed to handle it." He thought his "honesty" was going to make him feel better. He didn't care about how it made her feel. The Momentus mindset sounds more like Scientology than Christianity. Regards, Shaz

Dear ex10, LOL, that is so true! My last baby is turning 13 this week -- whoever said boys are easier is nuts.... ;)--> I think we develop a thinking pattern of "just keep teaching them, this too shall pass" with our kids. I think we did it somewhat with our TWI leaders, too. "That's just Doctor, he's frustrated 'cuz he loves us." "As soon as Craig stops screaming, we can get on with life, this will blow over." A good survival tactic when used with children, because we adults are in the position of power. We overlook their tantrums, and teach them when they are ready to listen. But what were we doing allowing grownups to treat us like that, whether in TWI, offshoots, or Momentus? You touched on something that hits me in all this "we can handle it" thinking. I was out before LCM and the spittle years. I'm thinking that some people just don't feel "strong" or "spiritual" unless they're surviving something like that, or at least that their warning bells don't go off when someone acts like that. Yelling at people for no good reason should be a warning sign, not something to be explained away as in "he just really loves us." Insults and mocking are abuse. Uncontrolled rage is abuse. Some people felt "spiritually strong" because they could take it. I would call them spiritually numb. I'm glad you were able to not take it too seriously. I think that mindset has helped you, and it isn't blond at all! Regards, Shaz

Very sad, Steve. And very deceptive. The truth is, no one can predict how they will behave in a crisis like that, anyway. But what a nasty way to condemn people for being unselfish, at least in a theoretical context. Besides, I for one suck at names. I remember faces, bodies, but one day I can forget a name, and the next I can just as easily remember it. (Lyme has made that even worse.) It doesn't mean I don't care, Dale Carnegie be darned. The exercise was a red herring. A psychologically dangerous one. Regards, Shaz

Thanks, WW and JT, I was just going to say the same thing. Signing such a clause is basically worthless. We have the same thing in gymnastics, and if someone could prove negligence or abuse, he could sue and win, whether he signed such a paper or not. Dan, thanks for the rewrite of the details of the Momentus class. I was doing that mentally as I read the account, anyway. (You did use the emotionally-charged word "forced" on #6, however.... ;)--> ) I have never been involved with CES, never heard of Momentus before reading a little about it on Waydale. Here is some of what I am seeing about it from this thread. If you took it, and disagree, feel free to say so: 1.) Momentus costs about $150 (formerly $300) and takes 4 days. Sounds like you have to go someplace to take it, retreat-style. 2.) Students are required to sign a "no blame" disclaimer. My concern here is that the instructors are not mental health professionals who would understand the consequences of pushing the students emotionally. Sometimes, people repress things they are not ready to face. 3.) Students are asked to keep the class a secret. Hmm, major red flag right there. 4.) Students are encouraged to confess their sins, and to make amends to people they have wronged. Like another poster suggested, I would wonder if students were taught that contacting some of their victims would victimize them all over again. (Even AA talks about making amends where possible. 4.) Students are put through a number of exercises and experiences designed to make them think about core issues in their lives, particularly to point out where they are wrong or dishonest about those issues. Some of it sounds very similar to acting class exercises, as someone else noted. I took such acting classes in college. If anyone has seen the acting class segments on the "Last Action Hero" reality TV show, they are seeing the same thing. The instructor often offers up value judgments about the subjects' lives in an attempt to get them to open up their deeper emotions, and be "honest." They are congratulated when they break into tears and remember painful parts of their pasts. I have seen acting students run screaming through the halls after such classes, just trying to relieve themselves of the emotional overload. I have also seen students become like disciples of the drama teacher, hanging onto her every word about lifestyle, eating habits, politics, and religious belief. (Cult-like, yes.) It doesn't take a lot of training to create an emotional experience for people. But whether or not that experience will be healthy depends in large part upon the student, who should be very aware of the manipulation being exerted. Perhaps the money could be better spent just renting a cabin alone for a few days. Regards, Shaz

I rarely tell people, unless it fits the topic of discussion. I have seen the blank stare in response, and would guess that it is to cover the fact that they don't want to reveal what they're thinking, which is that they would NEVER be so dumb as to get involved in a cult (so what is HER problem?!). I have been out a long time, and was adequately employed most of the time I was in, so there are no blank spots on my resum?r salary history. My TWI years are a part of who I am, but only a part. Regards, Shaz

Dear Linda and sirguess, I can agree with you in this much. When someone's posts are as inflamatory as LLPOF's are, they don't rile me. Nor do I especially think that my responses will do much to change that person's mindset. But I post with a thought to those who might be lurking who haven't made up their minds on the matter. As to people with terse responses, well, some don't feel that their actions have to "line up with the Word" any longer. And sometimes, when people have been abused, they feel empowered by stopping any future abuse in its tracks with strong words. I don't blame them -- mean people suck! Regards, Shaz

LLPOF, Something I don't understand. You say that you "wrestle not against flesh and blood." That's Ephesians 6, and I assume that you believe that verse, and the rest of that passage, you know, about the feet shod with peace, and the only weapon the Word of God. (Yes, I am paraphrasing.) But you have come in here using the weapon of your hurtful and insulting words against flesh and blood. ("You are as yellow as they come" stands out, along with "lazy," "sluggards," and the like.) You have jumped to conclusions about people's motives all over the place. ("You must have been picked on as a kid" is one of the more amusing ones.) You said, "When I speak I know at times due to immaturity people may take my words wrong." I would say rather that it is due to your un-Christian way of communicating that you are not listened to. The Way was full of angry leaders, supposedly yelling at each other "in love." But the only ones I read Jesus getting ticked off at were the religious hierarchy. That isn't us, for sure. So your insulting diatribe accomplishes nothing in the name of God here. Sorry, LiarLiar, but we have lives, and can't just pick up and fly across the country to try and convince you. But we have this wonderful forum, where we can all write what we think and feel to each other. And sometimes, when we listen, we learn something. Shaz

Sorry, LiarLiar, but I for one am comfortable in what I have said. The truth stands, whether you believe me or not. But I am curious: what "lies" can't you stomach? Wierwille's plagiarism? His sexual indiscretions? His doctrinal fallacies? His death from cancer? Sometimes, truth hurts. Especially when you have been holding on to a fantasy. Shaz

Dear washingtonweather, There is talk here in Maine (speaking with managing editor of a daily here) that Maine's guidelines, which are currently above those of NO Child Left Behind, will be dumbed DOWN to meet the Act. Many teachers will quit or opt for early retirement rather than have to work like this. Question: is it mandatory to accept the No Child Left Behind guidelines, or can a state exceed them? Regards, Shaz

Dear Steve!, Waving at you from Maine, and glad that you will be done with that assignment soon. My best to you and all the 'Spotters I got to meet those last coupla months -- Paw, parsley, sympatico, WordWolf, Cindy! I enjoyed meeting the humans behind the avatars very much. Now, go see "Stepford Wives" (filmed in New Canaan and Norwalk) and see what I am NOT missing about CT! Shaz

I just saw the movie "The Stepford Wives," and near the end of the movie, the women are released from the computer program that had turned them into robots. They then loudly confront their spouses. The head of Stepford looks at the chaos with dismay and shouts, "Men, control your wives!" Sounded just like Wierwille. Wierwille was a man's man in every bad sense. He taught about the love of God, but he exemplified a domineering attitude toward his own wife, and that example filtered down to many of the leaders and followers. He talked about the thing that impressed him enough to listen to the man who taught him to speak in tongues was how he "handled" his wife, as quoted in an authorized book about TWI. He told his wife to give their newborn to relatives to raise for a year, because they were going to India. He parked the motorcoach outside the family home and slept there while his wife slept in the house. But Wierwille did not sleep alone. Shaz