shazdancer

Body memory is a physical reaction to certain stimuli, like sights, sounds, or smells, based on previous experience with those stimuli, even if the conscious mind does not remember. If the experience was a frightening one, the person might suddenly start to hyperventilate, feel afraid, even vomit, even though there is no reason to feel afraid at that moment. The person may or may not realize what is setting the reaction off. One example: You smell something pungent, and feel strangely peaceful and cozy. Only later do you realize that what you smelled was mothballs, and your favorite grandmother used to keep her sweaters in a box full of them. Another example: A co-worker walks by, and you start to feel very angry at him, even though he didn't do anything. He just smells like hate to you. But what he really smells like is cologne, the same brand of cologne worn by the man who sexually assaulted you years ago. You didn't even remember he wore cologne until that moment. Hope that helps, Shaz (edited to fix the spelling of conScious. I hate it when I misspell!)

My son had a Flat Stanley as well. He shipped it to his sisters at college and they took some great pictures. It's a great idea. Also, back in the beanie baby craze days, someone did something similar with a Peace bear. He had a website with pictures of all his travels, and anyone who got him added a button or trinket to his outfit. It was a lot of fun, and I used it with my girl to teach a little geography, tracking where he went on a map. Sure, Steve, send him here! Regards, Shaz

Wowsers, juan, sounds like you have coped with a lot! I hope you are proud of that (sometimes it feels like you're shoveling caca uphill in a rainstorm, I know!). Interesting how each story is a little different, and yet each the same. You are amazing, and courageous. The drinking and gambling (and drugs and sex, too) come up a lot in these scenarios. I think there is a lot of acting out and self-medicating, all to ease the original pain of childhood abuse. Then the drinking loosens the inhibitions, and the resultant bad behavior brings on more guilt, which is masked by more drinking/acting out, and it just builds and builds. Total control, total recklessnes. Jekyl, Hyde. I think the best thing we can do for our kids to break the cycle is to show them there is a better way. Relationships are not about winning and losing. They are about loving and helping. And the best "win" I know over an abuser is a life well-lived. Regards, Shaz

Blame Steve!, Jeff. He complimented me on starting a thread, which I hardly ever do, so I started this one.... ;)--> Shaz

Nice, ckeer, just saw your post. Yes, I loved Peck's The People of the Lie. So interesting to read his last chapter, about the My Lai massacre, in light of what just happened in the Abu Graib prison. Same lack of culpability. Another favorite book of mine is The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. Hers is one of the few books I've read that goes beyond defining abuse as only hitting and yelling, and the only one I've read that speaks about withholding as abusive. Regards, Shaz

Dear ala and Juan, Yeah, how about that, a guy with an abusive personality disorder taught us that we ought to be just as controlling as he is. Hmm, sure gave him room to abuse with impunity, didn't it! I had no idea how bad Wierwille's stuff had permeated into the ranks via Craig, as I was out before Wierwille died. That is, until I married a guy who had been "in" during the TWI2 years. Okay, Juan, now I get ya. You might be right, that there is an imbalance in the body that contributes to the abuser's problem. Stress creates physical changes in the body that make a person susceptible to disease or depression, for instance. If we could tap into that chemical/mental imbalance, we might end the abusive cycle. The biggest problem with getting to an abuser, though, is that he doesn't think he needs help. He thinks everybody else is messed up! Dear ala, I hope you can encourage this person to get away. Are there kids? Appealing to her sense of wanting to protect them from harm may help. If she continues to try to find ways to "understand" him or "help" him, the cycle of abuse will continue, and progress. She should get some professional help in sorting out what is happening to her. Regards, Shaz

I dunno, HJ. Could you explain what you mean? But I loved this... Been there, done that, it worked!;)--> Shaz

I Cor. 6:1-3 Sheesh, can we put this "don't judge anybody" thing to rest yet? We cannot judge the ultimate fate of a man, that's God's job, but we can certainly judge right from wrong. I also note that it is the ones that have the most judgmental and insulting attitude (WTH and Mike) who are the ones to say "don't judge Wierwille." I also wanted to speak to Mike's assertion that Wierwille probably apologized to God a hundred times for his evil actions, and God forgave him a hundred times and somehow snuck His Word to him between rapes, drunks, and verbal abuses. Do you see how ridiculous it becomes to believe such a thing? How dumb do we think God is, that we can just say "sorry" and not mean it? "Forgive 70 times 7," sure. (A figure of speech meaning "forgive every time.") But there should be true repentance by the perpetrator every time. So just by common sense (see, I got it back after leaving TWI), it must be talking about 70 times 7 DIFFERENT sins, not the SAME sin 490 times. Sheesh, being defrauded the same way more than once a week for 7 YEARS, I would think you were a glutton for punishment! We are requiring our man of God to at least be as human as most unbelievers, who don't sexually molest, get drunk, and verbally abuse. They don't even think about it. Regards, Shaz

Mike, I realize that we haven't heard your whole story, not by a long shot, and so I hesitated to post as much as I did. But I truly hope that you will consider finding a qualified professional to get into this with. Suppressed hurt has a way of popping up annoyingly in all the wrong places. Regards, Shaz

You know you are in a cult when you can't just help someone or answer a question, but you have to defer them until they sign a card and pay. Shaz

Mike, I am not going to reply to the post you addressed to me, except to say that it is ridiculously off the mark. Rather, I would like to speak to your post of 2 pages ago that has brought up a lot of interesting responses. Mike you think that disliking casual sex is a mere habit pattern? Good, but sure sounds like the antithesis of what you wrote before. Would you care to elucidate? Whoa, whoa, back up a minute! ( ;)--> ) What are you protecting yourself from, by downplaying your empathy? from feeling too intensely? from losing control? Mike, dude, if there's one thing I've learned, empathy is what Christianity is all about! It's what CHRIST is all about! He died because he cared so much. You like word studies. I assume you still have a good Greek concordance. Take a look at the word splagchna and its derivatives. You spoke before on another thread about not being popular with the ladies. Hey, meet another nerd. :D--> You and I both grew up in an area where there were a LOT of good-looking kids on the fast track to getting their trust funds. I was not one of them. But as I came to like myself, quirks and all, I found a social life to my liking. (Puberty was a b**ch though, ya know?)I have not thought much about what TWI's sex practices did to the men who weren't participants, or even to those who were. Wow, young men coming into their adulthood, having their maleness (and relations with females) redefined in some pretty unsavory ways. I think it would make an interesting thread. From what I have read from you, Mike, there were two things that hurt you: being left out of the "inner circle" of "cool" Wayfers who had love lives or sex lives; and Wierwille chewing you out. They both suck. They shouldn't have happened, certainly not among people who professed to stand for the love of God. Some of us were the perpetrators of such behavior, and some of us stood by and didn't speak up.I also am coming from a place of having been hurt by Wierwille, though not sexually. I have no trouble recognizing that he taught some good things, and did some good things, but that is a long way from believing that his PFAL writings are God-breathed, as you believe. And part of the point of this thread is to point that out. To me, the very fact that he was a sexual predator at the time of the writings precludes him from being a writer of God's Word, according to the scriptures themselves. We "take up the cause of someone else's hurts" because we care. The survival of sexual abuse is especially complicated, because people don't understand how profound the abuse is, and how much it robs from the victim. I have "taken up" a few causes lately: ex-Way, abuse, and Lyme disease. I got involved in them because I cared, and hope that by having a little knowledge in those areas I might contribute something helpful. BTW, Mike, I am a survivor of sexual assault. So do we all, when the hurt might interfere with our ability to accomplish things. But we should not deny the hurt all the time, or it will only pop up someplace else -- as depression, for instance, or distrust, or a short fuse. I could bet money that if we could look into Wierwille's childhood years, we would see profound abuse. Perhaps some of your talks with people who knew him then turned some of that up, Mike. I pity him for that, but now it is his victims that need comforting. I would suggest that your "relative values" are a bit skewed. People matter. More than the book, which was written for the people! And I would also suggest that you not become devoid of emotion when it comes to weighing the value of a human being. Yes, but the only war is a spiritual one. When it comes to dealing with people, we are to keep our ability to empathize intact. We are to be like Jesus Christ, the man who loved, whose very insides churned in his caring for them. I understood you, I just disagree. Getting PFAL into print was not more important than the lives that were critically wounded by Wierwille and his lackeys. Mike, you have spent over a year here trying to convince us to give PFAL a second look. I would invite you, instead, to open your heart for awhile, instead of your mind. Intellect, schmintellect. Data, schmata. God could care less about how smart we are. He looks on the heart. He gave power in the first century to people who couldn't even read, and who didn't have a Bible. But it wasn't power over others that He gave, nor power to gain admirers. It was power to help, because they cared, and He cared. Regards, Shaz

No sweat, JT, I think this discussion was a slam-dunk. But if I ever get into some SERIOUS trouble, I'll be sure to call on ya! ;)--> Shaz

Dear tonto, I did document a work situation once. I had been a gymnastics coach in a YMCA gym for 7 years, finally increasing my hours there to the point of qualifying for full-time benefits. About that same time, the head coach for the team retired, and a jerk was put in his place. He screamed at kids who were trying their best. He insulted kids. He put a kid on parallel bars without a spot -- she hit the wall on a skill and fell to the floor, breaking both arms. Told never to put kids on that bar set doing that skill alone again, he did it again. He left kids alone on the apparatus while he went out for a smoke. It was a nightmare. I wrote up 4 or 5 different occurrences. The coaches began to neglect their own responsibilities to sit and watch me doing mine, hoping to catch me doing something wrong. The administrators suddenly found a loophole in my contract, and took away my benefits. I quit. I probably could have sued, but too much was going on in my life as it was, and my family was dependent on my income. Would I do it over again if I had the chance? Absolutely. He was abusing children. The guy was eventually fired. (He was an alcoholic, and got himself into trouble on and off the job.) They even invited me back. But too many people that had been the cause of going after me were still in place, and I wasn't hearing any apologies or offers of reimbursement, so I never went back. Regards, Shaz

Dear dmiller, How cool that your clients have such a caring staff! I hope you all can take solace in the fact that you are all taking the high road and doing a great job for your clients, in spite of a supervisor who is a jerk. By focusing on the great job you guys can do, you won't be stuck on focusing on the job he isn't doing. Be ready for him to take all the credit, though. --> Regards, Shaz

Dear exy, The youngest girl is now 47, born in 1957. Same age as I am. :)--> Mike, Told ya it would hit the fan. And Raf and JT didn't even get into it.... ;)--> Shaz

ckeer, I hear ya. Some people react to having been abused (or controlled, or made afraid) by becoming determined to not perpetuate the cruelty on someone else. Others withdraw from future contacts, or become depressed (anger turned inward). But some get a chip on their shoulder, an attitude of "I'm never gonna let someone hurt my feelings ever again, I'll show them they can't hurt me," and the abuse is passed on. The victim can sympathize with the abuser in the absract, because, after all, he was a victim at one time, as well. But at the time the abuse is occurring, sympathy and caring will be perceived as weakness and exploited with more abuse. A better tactic, as a la prochaine said, is to take away the power. If we're talking physical abuse, the survivor needs to get away from the abuser, and get help. Let the law be the power over the abuser. In verbal abuse, a refusal to play the power game can defuse the abuser. Not allowing one's self to be baited into responding with anger, using humor, or dismissing the perpetrator as insignificant are a few tactics. People who have been sucked into a pattern of receiving abuse (either by their upbringing, or through a long-term, progressively worsening relationship) need to get away from the abuser and build (or rebuild) a sense of what behaviors in a relationship are trivial/excuseable, which need discussion, and which need to be stopped immediately. Then the survivor can get back into a more healthy relationship and insist that those boundaries be honored, though it isn't always easy. Unfortunately, dmiller, you can't get away from the guy, and he IS in a position of power -- he's your boss. Having already been a survivor of abuse, I would probably get out of the job. But you might not have to if you can do 2 things: not let his junk get to you, and minimize some of his behaviors. Or you could just continue to give him what he wants, and you will eventually get sick or depressed from the stress! To lessen the stress, remind yourself of how pitiful his attempts at power are. Build your own life away from work -- the best revenge is a successful life. Have less stressful things at work to focus on: fellow employes, a comfortable workspace, a light snack. Keep contact with the guy to a minimum. To lessen some of his behaviors, try reversing roles, but without the abuse. Teach him like a mother, explaining to him what most people think is proper behavior in that situation, and OF COURSE he already knows that! (Teach him and compliment him at the same time.) Laugh at him. Ignore him. Act as if his barbs were more boring than anything (they hate to lose your attention). Try telling him flat out what you will or will not tolerate. Tell him firmly, but calmly. (I know a dance teacher that actually made her boss write those boundaries into her contract!) He may fire you. He may plot more devious ways to harass you. But I am always amazed at how often these guys crumble when you refuse to be intimidated. They are bullies, looking for the weaker ones to pick on. Food for thought, I hope, Shaz

Mike, You said If you are inferring that Wierwille was just being a fallible human being because all those women gave him "hundreds of daily opportunities for action," and he finally gave in to a few of them, then the verbal caca is about to hit your fan. I haven't heard one woman here who has told her story of molestation say that she did anything to encourage it; on the contrary, HE went after THEM. Some of them were able to get away. Some were not. They were so busy giving him "opportunity," Mike, that he had to drug them to get them.Do I think that a "man of God," a pastor of God's people, a married man, and a man with a daughter of the same age as the women he molested, should be able to say no to molesting any woman in his care, even if they had stripped naked in front of him, which they didn't??? YES. Yes, Mike, he could have, he should have said no. THEY said no. But he went after them anyway. That is despicable. If you think you wouldn't resist in his shoes, then you are just as despicable. Shaz

Dear Oldies, And that, I think, is the essence of our differences. For the fact that he callously hurt my brothers and sisters in Christ, which I do not rejoice in, absolutely does cause me to question what he taught. If it is truth, it will stand without him. Regards, Shaz

Yeah, WW, and the message behind the message: "I don't care that he hurt my brothers and sisters in Christ, as long as I got something for me...."

Yeah, Dan, icky, which is why I wanted to include it. And I read a lot of "I know what's wrong with you" into that and the rest of the letter. "You need not say anything" cracked me up, like I'm such a whuss that he will take care of everything for me. Ugh! Regards, Shaz

No sweat, Catcup, and thanks! Shaz

Agreed, herbiejuan, abuse is about power over another individual. Instead of just liking himself (or herself), the abuser only feels good when he has proved to himself that he is better than another. He has to win, and control. There is also an adrenaline rush in winning, which feels good. The abuser continues to seek this rush, and the more the competition becomes commonplace, the more the abuser needs to go further to get that adrenaline "high." Unchecked abuse only escalates. Regards, Shaz

Okay, with JAL's permission, here is the first part of his most recent email, which was addressed more to me personally... Why do they always prefer calling? ... wait, I think I know ... ;)-->Anyhoo, here is my response to his email. Dear John, Well, I got a chuckle out of what you said to me. You see, I am not afraid of you, nor of TWI. I never was, which is probably one of the things which helped spare me any big trauma upon leaving that organization. I was profoundly sad and disappointed with the organization and Wierwille, but not traumatized. I had not been abused to the extent of others, and did not know about the sexual abuse that was going on. I have had some very good experiences with several mainstream churches and church-goers, including when I was still in, which is now almost twenty years ago. I am happy with where my life is now in terms of spiritual matters. To be honest, I think a phone call would waste your time and mine. And it would be harder for me to accurately convey to Greasespot what was said, which is my main purpose in contacting you. Again, thank you for putting your views out there. Very few of the TWI "offshoots" have done that. I would have no problem posting the first part of your letter to me, if you are amenable. As far as the "fear of the dog" part of your post, I think there is a third choice. Life is short -- you don't have to pet every dog to see which ones bite, and which don't! And you don't have to like dogs at all if you don't want to, with or without a bad experience. That is me at this time, I'm just not searching. Regards, {Shaz}

Dear Oak, Thank you. You understood my point exactly. Dear Catcup, Here is the quote: Heck, when I originally heard Princeton, I thought it meant a divinity school at Princeton University, too. Now, Princeton Theological is a great school, according to Plotinus. But obviously the Princeton name carries a certain authority to it.This is a tiny error, no big deal. But my point is, anyone can make a mistake, or miss double-checking every fact. But the bulk of RG's posts are so well thought through, that he IS well-respected here. And I think he can survive my using him to make my point. (I also hope that my own credibility does not fall apart if I make an honest mistake.) If he has a problem with it, could you please tell him to PM me? Regards, Shaz

Dear Catcup, Do you mean like the time Research Geek posted about Wierwille getting his Master's from Princeton, when where he really got it from was from Princeton Theological Seminary, which is not affiliated with Princetone University? (That post has just been copy/pasted on the "Is VPW a Doctor?" thread, on page 5.) I'm just reminding everybody that anybody can make an honest mistake, can remember things differently, or have a different interpretation of events. That is far removed from intentionally trying to skew the facts, but all possibilities need to be kept in mind when evaluating someone's post. Catcup, I think most of us are trying hard to be honest and factual. I have always appreciated your heart-felt and detailed contributions to this forum, as well. I think it is the examination of the bulk of someone's postings that tend to lend credence to that individual, although even then it is possible to be fooled. Regards, Shaz