shazdancer

Oldies, Thank you for sharing that. Yes, you were mistreated. They should have listened to you. They should have forgiven YOU, since it sounds like you were truly sorry and determined not to repeat your mistake, whatever that was. It says more about their hardheartedness, that they would give up on a brother in Christ like that. Heck, when they gave up on me, I had done nothing wrong -- it was my husband that had erred, and they just abandoned me with him, refused all help. Hardheartedness, not to mention laziness. I am sorry for what they did to you. So you forgave them, cool. But you seem intent on supporting them, and that I don't understand. They are not to be congratulated for teaching the Bible. Heck, it's obvious that there are preachers all over the country taking people's money, claiming to be "men of God" and spouting accurate Scripture. No great talent to that. And that in and of itself should not place anyone in a position of honor. Perhaps God was able to work with you even in a bad situation. Then be thankful to God. That's how I feel about my time in TWI -- good came, even out of an evil organization. And they were evil. I think about the number of stories of mistreatment I have heard on Greasespot alone. Exy, you, me, valerie, Dot, Coolwaters and templelady, Shellon, Abigail -- these are the ones whose stories I can recall at the moment, I know there have been many others. (My apologies to those of you I missed.) If Wierwille pulled off only four such incidents per year between 1975-1985, then I would say that he was a bad man not worthy of respect. Yet it is safe to say there were a lot more than 40 incidents of cruelty. I will second CW's post... Shaz

That's okay, Goey. I heard you, and thank you for pointing out that verses like Rom. 5:8 are irrelevant. They didn't make sense to me, either. Regards, Shaz

And oldies, you got it backwards. You said, "God doesn't require us to have to receive repentence first, before we can forgive someone." It's true, one can certainly forgive someone who hasn't repented if one wants to. That would be giving mercy -- sometimes a good thing, for the sinner and the one sinned against. But God requires that we forgive someone who has repented. Shaz

Oldies, you don't need to forgive Wierwille, he didn't rape you. Unless perhaps you wanted to forgive him for misrepresentation. Since he's dead, it's a little late. However, there are a number of his victims who deserve forebearance and tenderheartedness. Shaz

Try this on for size, CW. God has foreknowledge. I don't. When God asked Jesus to die on the cross, He knew that someday people would believe on him unto eternal life. (John 3:16, Rom. 10:9-10, pick your favorite salvation scripture.) When Jesus forgave the palsied man, he knew what was in the man's heart. And it can be argued that any event recorded in the Bible does not mention every detail, but rather summarizes the event. We don't know if the man repented or not. It doesn't say. Doesn't mean he didn't, just that the emphasis of the story was on the reaction of the scribes and Jesus' teaching, not on the details of the man's state of mind. Now, when someone sins against me, unless I get revelation, I don't know what is in that person's heart. But if he repents, which I can see by his actions and hear by his words, then I am bound to forgive him. I agree with you -- I ain't God, and God doesn't expect me to be. Regards, Shaz

RG, I'm in with rascal and satori and others on this one. Tell us your point of view, we would be interested. Preach to us about "the truth," and I think you will have lost the attention of many of us. And your posts up to now, to me, sound like you are ready to preach. Regards, Shaz

Some amazingly wonderful responses here already. Touché, excy! :D--> I luck out, I guess. I have no one to forgive. I was out before LCM reigned, and Wierwille is dead. Any other slights were those of the day-to-day mistake variety, easily forgiven. I prefer the non-Biblical word "pardon" where the unrepentant are concerned, which technically means to absolve from punishment, not necessarily from guilt. Pardoning an enemy means I overlook the offense and do not seek to punish the offender. I agree RG, one can be consumed by seeking revenge, even when it is justified. Which is why when the owners of Waydale just wanted to walk away after their lawsuit and settlement, I was very supportive. I know how much a court case can interfere with personal lives and peace of mind. And if it is true that LCM has a personality disorder, you will probably never have the "closure" of repentance from him. He will probably think that what happened to him is the fault of everyone else. I am in a situation now where I am hassled by an ex, as several of you know. He wants me to forgive him. He wants me to reconcile with him. He's even tried to convince me of this on Biblical grounds (which becomes real funny when he pulls out I Cor. 7:11, 'cuz then he never should have married me at all, and I should go back to my FIRST husband!). WHY does he want forgiveness? Because he's sorry? No, he has never repented, and his lies continue to this day. I have already pardoned him of much of it, because I want MY life to go on. But I have no interest in any kind of relationship with him, and will not let him near my kid unsupervised. It sounds very much like what Wierwille, Martindale, and any unrepentant sinner pulls -- "to be a good Christian, you have to forgive me." Guilt me into forgiving. Why do they want forgiveness? So they can continue to perpetrate the same evils. Regards, Shaz

Cathy, I agree with you. Catcup, I changed my fact (the anniversary of TWI) when I saw that I was incorrect. I hold to my opinion (that Wierwille exaggerated), even though I hear what you are saying. I hope you will always feel free to add your knowledge of TWI history to this site. I hope you will not think of it as doing "your research for you." I do not think of Paw's site as one with "lower standards," just different ones. As I recall, when PA got his settlement and prepared to shut down his site, many were disappointed that he did not live "up" to their "standards." His wasn't lower, either -- just different. Please note that it was Paw who stepped up and continued the ex-Way exchange of information begun by PA and others before him. Not too shabby, in my opinion. And yes, I speak as one who also went to court over issues that were complicated by TWI involvement. I won. I went back to court and had to question a witness -- pro se. TWI issues again involved. I won again. This ain't court. But it sure helps a lot of people, warts and all. Regards, Shaz

Awesome job. Bob! My favorite phrase: Regards, Shaz

Thanks for the info, Catcup and 3Cents. I edited that info on Wordwolf's "Rough Recollections - History" thread. The 1985 brochure on TWI history says that Wierwille started intensively studying the Bible "in the late summer of 1942," after Rosalind Rinker spoke with him. After that he had the vision. VP supposedly was looking at a "crystal blue, autumn sky" before the blizzard. Then the radio program began "approximately one month after God audibly spoke to him," on October 3rd. The point is still clear -- Wierwille exaggerated the time frame to make TWI look more legitimate. Regards, Shaz

Thanks, sky and Belle. It would have been laudable that some wanted to stand with "the ministry" and maybe help it get better, but since it essentially hasn't changed for some 15 years (and was corrupt long before that), isn't it time to say enough is enough? At best, they think they are the faithful remnant -- at worst, they would rather just toe the line than think independently. Perhaps some feel smug in being part of the "right" group, while ignoring the fact that their "right" group is robbing their dignity. Sad. Regards, Shaz PS -- I am not including those who have more legitimate reasons for still being "in" as part of this discussion, such as those who have family members who still follow TWI. My ex is not one of those.

I hear you, skyrider. You couldn't have the spirit of God working in individual believers, what chaos! Why, what would the body of Christ be then? An arm over here, a leg over there, everyone contributing differently.... They needed the whole body to be an eye. ;)--> Shaz

Sheesh, with thinking like that, I'd rather be an unbeliever, they have more freedom! Shaz PS a la, you made a funny!

oldies, You said Yup, I have sinned, too, but never wanted to trick young people into having sex with me -- have you? I have never said I was especially chosen of God to deliver His Word like it has not been seen since the first century, yada yada. No snow on my gas pumps. But even without such great confirmation that there is a God, I just don't live like that. Do you? Yet Wierwille claims to have had a huge confirmation of God's existence, yet it did nothing to improve his life, apparently. (Mike would have us believe that he was an improvement over what he would have been without God. I guess then he would have been a mass murderer or something. Not exactly a candidate for Twig leader, much less MOGFODAT.) At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum: the Bible says God gives His revelation to holy men. Wierwille was not a holy man. Even you admit this, oldies. And if there was no one to keep him in check, whose idea was that? Who set up the organization to begin with? Who fired those who tried to talk to him? So now you want to say that the power did it. In other words, when God calls someone and gives him special revelation, a special gift ministry, he's gonna get corrupt -- it's the power's fault. Hmm, made me think of Paul. Wierwille liked to compare himself with Paul a lot, remember? Paul was full of corrupt political power before meeting Christ on the road to Damascus. But somehow, he became the humblest of the humble afterward. So much for the "power corrupts" theory.... Wierwille's dichotomy does not seem enigmatic at all if you understand anything about personality disorder. He fits the profile to a T. His actions truly spoke louder than his words. Shaz

But oldies, TWI hasn't been around nearly as long as the RC church. Just give TWI time to catch up! ;)--> Shaz

oldies, You said I think there are two views of the motives behind the ministry of Victor Paul Wierwille (if you believe he did half of what he has been accused of): 1.) When he was good, he was very, very good; when he was bad, he was horrid. 2.) When he was good, he was doing it for his own selfish reasons. I have a problem with Viewpoint #1. For a man to be that cruel, uncaring, and selfish on the one hand, and yet to be as generous, caring, and unselfish as he portrayed himself to be, he would have to be psychotic. Are you arguing that he was? One minute he was one of the most loving and loved of God, the next he was motivated to evil deeds beyond the desires of most unbelievers, and back and forth, often on the same day? In Viewpoint #2, Wierwille spoke the truth at times, but only because he wanted to be seen as an altruistic man. It gave him access to the things he wanted: power, adulation, privileges, sex. It also served to bolster Wierwille's need to be special. He could justify needing more than the average man, and of being above the average man, because of the burdens of his special calling of God. If people got born again or delivered, it only served to bolster his ego. Go ahead, oldies, be thankful that good things happened to you while you were in TWI. In fact, be very grateful that the things that happened to others did not happen to you. As for me, I will go with Catcup's response. Throw it all out, then go back if you want and examine the Bible point by point, and live by those things that make sense. I don't think God would mind. Shaz

Why, thank you, WW! Yeah, been around da block, learned a few things the hard way unfortunately, and heaven help my boyfriend, 'cuz I don't take no caca from no one no more! ;)--> :D--> Shaz

WTH, you said I'll agree with you in part. Sometimes it doesn't work. I have had people tell me that what I said warned them/informed them and they avoided trouble. Continuing, you said... Now you've lost me. Avoiding getting entangled with evil = fear of standing out from the crowd???Geez, my whole life has been one of standing out from the crowd. I have no idea what you think you're preaching here. And yeah, I fault the jerks for being jerks. And I'm plugging up the holes in my own psyche that allowed those jerks to stay in my life as long as they did. One of those jerks was Wierwille, you know, the guy who taught that any two believers could make a marriage work, and the guy who taught that the woman would be blessed for standing by her man. Shaz

Oldies, I can only speak for myself, so I will speak for myself. I have retained some of the doctrine I learned in TWI. A lot of it I chucked, or just relegated it to the "who cares?" file. At this stage in my life, I am much more concerned with living like someone that God would be proud to call His child, than worrying about every jot and tittle of Biblical accuracy. However, even if I was completely following the doctrines and practices of TWI, I would not return to that organization. Why not? Because of the evil that they did as an organization, and because they have not repented of covering for their leaders. Oldies, as we speak I am being badgered by someone preaching The Word. If you heard some of the glowing phrases about Christ's return in the letter I received, without hearing the rest of the letter, you would think they were inspired by God Himself. But coming from someone who perpetrated evil in my life, and continues to do so, I would rather hear such things from somebody else. Believe it, his motives in saying these things to me are not pure. Neither were Wierwille's motives. If you got something pure out of it, then thank God He was able to wrest something good out of something evil. johniam, rationing my food because people are starving in India makes no sense, because my starving will not make them not starve. But where I can help, I try to help. Because my experience in TWI might help someone who got burned by that org, Gspot is my little bit of help. Shaz

Yup, WTH, I've been pushed around by life a bit. Here's what I found... I was tricked and ripped off by my first husband. I was tricked and ripped off by Wierwille. I was tricked and ripped off by my second husband. I was tricked and ripped off by a few employers. So what did I learn? That this life is short, and I would rather spend the rest of it around good people who are trying their best to do good things rather than around bad people. And I want to continue to understand myself and my motives better, so that I don't get tricked by bad people anymore. AND I want to take a little time to warn others about the bad people, and maybe spare a few the heartaches I have had. You have a problem with that? Shaz

Close enough, JT. So what's the scoop? And anybody else who wants to contribute to my question privately, feel free to PT or email. Regards, Shaz

Makes sense, 3cents. I know of a non-profit nursery school that has often ended up in the black, and they were always looking for ways to spend that extra money, because they weren't "allowed" to turn too much of it over into the next fiscal year. I guess what you're saying then is that one particular organization may decide that the money should go back into fulfilling its goals, while another might invest the profits and use the assets toward its goals instead. I like what you said about the IRS not caring if TWI (or whoever) uses its money poorly, as long as they use it legally. Sounds like TWI to me! Regards, Shaz

Thanks, Song, but with TWI and my ex, I think the predation is mutual! :D--> Regards, Shaz

PFAL cost $65 in 1972 -- included Vols. 1-3, PFAL book, RTHST, and the syllabus. PFAL went up to $85, then $100, then $200, fer sure, under Wierwille, but I can't give you a date on that. Regards, Shaz

Thanks, $.03 . You said that better than I could have. One of the few things a non-profit can't do is give the profits to themselves. They must put the money back into the org. (What I don't know is, how did TWI get away with investing so much of those profits, without using them for the organization?) Also, the Board may not receive a salary for being board members. If they perform any other service, they may get paid for that, but not for merely sitting on the Board and making policy. So Wierwille just told us how little money he made, all the while reaping the benefits of housecleaners, personal staff, lavish gifts, and TWI assets. And then deprived his children of their inheritance, because he'd willed it all to TWI. The third major thing is, they organization is not allowed to endorse a political candidate. I have recently found a copy of the letter Wierwille sent in 1976 telling us he endorsed Maine Senator Hayes Gahagan. Although Wierwille does not use TWI letterhead, and denies that the org is endorsing the guy, Wierwille nonetheless used TWI's mailing list for this mailing -- oops! He's lucky he didn't lose TWI altogether over that one. Regards, Shaz