shazdancer

Hi, JM, and welcome! You will certainly find some nice people in The Way. You will probably hear some nice teachings on the Bible, as well. You may even find a home fellowship situation where you can attend as you please and not be pressured. Our beef is not with some nice people who have opened their homes to people to come and hear how God loves them. Our difficulty is with the organization, and much of its leadership. The organization was founded by a man who claimed that God told him He would teach him the Word if he would teach it to others, then he plagiarized the works of others and sold them as his original work. When his teachings caught on with young people in the 70's, he took sexual advantage of many. Although he preached the Word of God, his ego and nastiness behind the scenes were legendary. He raised up leadership that would equal, and sometimes surpass, his level of cruelty. They are quite controlling of any believers who become more deeply involved in their advanced training programs, such as Way Disciples, Way Corps, or the Advanced Class. Funny, but we thought that an organization founded on the Bible would operate with love and respect. It didn't turn out that way. We hope that, if you decide to visit, you will see the red flags that indicate this is not a healthy organization. Many of us missed those signs and suffered for it. Regards, Shaz

I think it's spelled neurontin, reiki :)--> Ask the herbal experts about natural remedies. The problem is always in getting a consistent dose -- slippery elm, for example, is natural aspirin, but how do you control the dosage if you make a tea of it? I have taken the supplement SAM-E in the past (am on a prescription NSAID now). Cost about $1 a pill, so it's not all that cheap. Found it helped raise my mood/energy levels in a couple of days, relieved achy joints in a couple of weeks. When it stopped working was when I knew I was relapsing from the Lyme. Regards, Shaz

PS -- and don't get me started on insurance companies, and the government, when it comes to disease... ;)--> Shaz

Hey duv, Lyme disease (named after Lyme, CT, where it was uncovered in the 1970's) is a bacterial infection caused by a bite from an infected deer tick, about the size of the period on this sentence. People have been infected in nearly every state, but mostly in the Northeast, as well as CA, PA, MN, and WI. I caught mine in CT. In its early stage, the infection may cause a flu-like illness and a rash. But sometimes it doesn't. (I never saw a rash, don't recall having the flu, and when I first had symptoms, I was mis-diagnosed.) Left untreated or under-treated, the bacteria can travel almost anywhere in the body and cause havoc, but it is common for the disease to cause fatigue, brain fog, joint or muscle pain, Bell's palsy, tingling, and/or depression and mental problems. It is the fastest-growing infectious disease in the country. Author Amy Tan has it -- it gave her hallucinations, among other symptoms. ESPN freelancer Brooke Landau wa recently featured in a very good article about it on the "Today" show. She was practically paralyzed, and needed IV antibiotics and hyperbaric oxygen to recover. Most chronic Lyme patients wind up on long-term antibiotics. For more information, go here. Hope that helps -- feel free to email me . Regards, Shaz

Dear andrea, Agreed, the victim may want to work on rebuilding the self-esteem and self-confidence that was systematically eroded by a relationship with an abuser. The victim may also want to develop better "antennae" against this type of character in the future. However, the victim should never feel that somehow he/she deserved or wanted the abuse. Dear Shell, A lot of times, there are secrets in cases of abuse, even after the events are past. Some to protect the innocent; others, to forgive the guilty; still others, to protect the self. Do what you have to do. Regards, Shaz

Hi, wyteduv, Save your money. Accurate or not, that book is way overpriced IMHO, and contains info that can be gotten in other books, online, and from people like herbie and mh. I recently picked up this book for $4 from a used bookstore: Alternative Medicine Guide to Chronic Fatigue, Fibromyalgia and Environmental Illness. The publishers have a website -- www.alternativemedicine.com . I have no idea how credible the site or the book are, but I wanted to get a book that seemed to cover many of the alternative medicine treatments that are used in Lyme, yeast, CFS, fibro, and RA. I have Lyme. And while you're at it, you may want to look into Lyme disease. It is often misdiagnosed as rheumatoid or fibro, among others. Regards, Shaz

I second that, Uncle Hairy. It will be hyped as a "clarifying" of the old doctrines, especially PFAL. Heck, sounds like they already floated a trial balloon of sorts at the recent ACS. Just wanted to see what the reaction would be to bringing back some PFAL material. I don't think they'd dare try to come up with anything substantially original. Or maybe they could just come up with another explanation of the Adam and Eve story... ;)--> Regards, Shaz

Dear outandabout, You said, "Why was it that the coordinator made EVERY dang decision down to where to keep the bread?" Reminds me of a WOW family coordinator who was distraught by her family's insistence on buying soft toilet tissue instead of the cheaper brand she wanted! Can't believe that I had to explain to her that something simple like that might "bless" those older ladies! Dear Belle, My ex had the ingrained TWI habit of putting his fork down between evey bite. Then he'd look around the table with disdain at the rest of the family. Didn't dare get in my face about it, though! ;)--> Hate to think what he said to my daughters when I wasn't there. Dear dmiller, Not the no-water torture! When I was in res, I would go to the water fountain as soon as the meal ended. And I always wondered why the head table had water -- so true, exy! Regards, Shaz

Dear sky, You mean, believing DOES NOT EQUAL receiving? You mean, I don't have to try and figure out where my believing is "off" when I operate the "law" and I don't receive? Cool. :)--> I think this doctrine more than any other was the source of much condemnation and heartache. It sure was that way for me. The law couldn't be wrong, I thought, so where was I missing it? Particularly in the area of physical health, which is so obviously "available" according to the KJV. Anyone who knows me from my Way days, knows I couldn't have been more pure for God. I knew the "law of believing" backwards and forwards, and I did my darndest to walk by it. If I did not receive (and sometimes I did not), then either the law of believing is wrong, or it is so complicated as to be incomprehensible, and the latter is not what Wierwille taught. Mike said That is Waybrain in a nutshell. And a subtle condemnation -- i.e., if you do not receive healing, it is because you are believing the negatives of this world. If you really believed, you wouldn't need medicine (interesting that it is juxtaposed with alcohol, as if the taking of any of these was a weakness).A positive outlook on life is a healthy and effective way to live, but it is a far cry from the "law of believing." Regards, Shaz

So sad. he seemed like a kind-hearted man who loved his family and tried to do the right thing. We need more such men in the world, not less... Prayers for his family, Shaz

...and I'll bet he always keeps his parents waiting, Linda! Maybe he was born past his due date. Sorry, had to be the first to say it... Shaz

Songthesame, but not the same Mike as the poster named Mike, just so ya know... ;)--> Paw, hugs and prayers over your loss. Take care, Shaz

Hi ex10, Just wanted to say sorry that you lost someone. And yeah, in the end, love's the thing. So sad that a place that was founded on teaching the greatness of the Bible sort of forgot that. Obsessed over I Cor. 12 and 14, but kinda forgot chapter 13. Socksie, You are a warped puppy, Must be why I like you. Have a teriyaki turkey jerky on me! Regards, Shaz

Dear John Linder, Maybe, instead of policing Greasespot, you might spend your time more profitably by looking at your own leadership, and encouraging them to act like Christians. You know, "giving no offense in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed," and all that. And don't forget to teach the believers that "if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." (I Tim. 5:8) I know you have a faithful member of the household in AZ who needs to hear it. If your own house were clean, there would be no need for Greasespot Cafe. Shaz

Dear TED, Very smart to have the composers retain the rights to the songs and give permission to TWI to use them. That way, the composers could still sing their songs post-TWI, and renew their copyrights, if they chose. Was that your idea to do it that way? You were the one with experience in the music industry -- the rest of Way Prod was pretty young starting out. TWI could have hired Way Prod and stipulated that anything produced would become the property of TWI. Glad they didn't. Also, kudos for helping Doug M with his album. I admire the stand he has taken. Regards, Shaz

Linda, I hear you about editing spelling or grammar errors! I'm the daughter of an English teacher, sweetie of an editor, and tournament Scrabble player. Talk about anal with words! Yet I mess 'em up all the time, sometimes on purpose! Bowtwi, Try buying milk that comes in the opaque, "light blocking" bottles (Hood is one brand name). It really does taste fresher, at least to me.... mj, Don't ever tell me your real name, 'cuz as a mandatory reporter, I think I'd have to turn you in for medical neglect. And while I'm being anal, a doctor writes a scrip, not a script. And staph is a bacterium, not a virus. Antibiotics kill bacteria, not viruses.... Shell, Thanks for the info! I knew that most meds degrade gradually, but I never knew how gradually! Regards, Shaz

Thanks, exy. That was on the "forgiveness" thread. And yes, I think the guilt card gets played by people who want to continue to perpetrate their abuse, or lessen their own guilt, by blaming others. And I appreciate that you noticed my post. WW, I 'm one who's been saying it, too. I jus think the point fit here really well! :)--> Shaz

Agreed, Evan. Wierwille taught the Athletes of the Spirit thing first. At first he seemed to teach it like "I know it says armor, but I like to think of it like an athlete" (not an exact quote, but the gist of it). Boy, was that confusing to hear him explaining that what the Word says is secondary to what he wants to think it should say! I thought it was crap then. It still is. And isn't it telling that one of the few doctrines that Wierwille didn't plagiarize is a piece of junk?! Regards, Shaz

Agreed, templelady. Weren't we taught that it was the sick person's believing that got him healed, not the healer's? So unless Wierwille's ministrations included some heavy revvy that we can ooh and ah about, the healing would have nothing to do with him -- the credit would go to God, and to the believing of the person being ministered to. If a person believed that Wierwille could heal him, then VP could have done the hokey-pokey, and it would have been enough to heal that person. Regards, Shaz

I think that there are times when NOT forgiving can help motivate a person to take a stand for righteousness and justice. Righteous anger can be very energizing. ;)--> Wierwille told me I was bitter, when I explained to him in a letter why I felt that he had let me down. I wasn't "bitter," if that means I was stuck in a depression because of unresolved conflict with him. (Pretty egotistical of him to think that.) I was disappointed in him, yes, and angry at the time that I received his handwritten scrawl on my letter. But my problems with him were nothing compared to my problems with my 1st husband. Wierwille's response motivated me to walk away from TWI, no sweat, and later my alcoholic husband, knowing TWI was not going to help us. Heck, if anything, I'm thankful that Wierwille showed me a bit of his true colors. I missed all of the horror of TWI-2. I have been told by my second ex, many times, that I should forgive him. He loves getting out those Bible verses that he thinks say I should. He would love someone like you, Geek, telling me that sooner or later, I should forgive him. Of course, he has never delineated what it is I should be forgiving him for, except for vague referrals to "retaliation." (In other words, he has never repented of what I actually divorced him for.) Hmm, was it retaliation to refuse to pay the minimal child support required by the state? Was I "unforgiving" to take him to court and make him pay, more than once? (That is only the tip of the iceberg about what went wrong, but it is a matter of record, so I will include it here.) What would ex#2 get out of my forgiving him? The ability to get off scott-free from his financial obligation. But he also wants TOTAL forgiveness. He wants us back together, me supporting him financially. He wants to continue to perpetrate the evil things he did while we were married, without telling those he lied to behind my back what was REALLY going on. Ex#2 also plays the "bitterness" card on me, as well as the "you should forgive" card. He learned it in TWI. Still does. Regards, Shaz

Session 1 went through some changes... "Need and Want Parallel." In the film, Wierwille put his hands together to indicate that need and want should be parallel to each other (you should need it as much as you want it), and it sure sounded to me like that's what he meant. That's what was taught in Twig as well, though the verses he cites clearly have nothing to do with need and want being equal to each other. Somewhere down the line, it was changed to explain that Wierwille wanted them parallel to the Word, that his hands were held parallel over the Bible he was sitting in front of. If that be true, it was a pretty muddy explanation (red drapes and all that). "All Without Exception/All Without Distinction." Just bad English, as they basically mean the same thing. In PFAL '77, Wierwille said his "research department" told him he should say it "all with distinction." (Could have said "all without exception or all with exception" and I think it would have been clearer.) He just shrugged and said something like, "But you all knew what I meant, didn't you?" and everyone roared and applauded. Heck, I knew what he meant, but I had to shake my head at a guy who talked so much about accuracy and precision just blowing off his own error like that. Regards, Shaz

Dear Catcup, You asked, "How did it become so offensive to ask if anyone was ready to forgive them?" I think because implied in saying, "are you ready" is the thought that you SHOULD be ready, sooner or later. And it is the "should" that gives me pause. Apparently, I am not the only one. Perhaps if Geek had said, "I decided to forgive, and here's why" or "should we forgive, how do you feel about it" (he says something like that later on in the post), it would have gone over better. Cat, you explained your position on forgiveness well. (And I agree with what you've said on the topic.) We never did hear it from Geek, who started the thread. If you both have the same take on forgiveness, it would be nice to hear that from Geek, who started the thread and said he would respond. I can understand getting unexpectedly too busy or sick to respond, but threads have a way of going on without their originators, fer sure! It's just the nature of the thing. You said, "I don't get it why some folks still feel like they are being told by us to forgive, or are being condemned for not being forgiving, when asked that question, -- Unless they are just plain shell-shocked from the constant barrage leveled against them while they were in TWI, and feel like that is what we are doing. Now, that, I can understand." That may explain it for some of us. I would think that those who suffered through a lot of the LCM years would not want anyone even hinting that they SHOULD be doing something that has spiritual overtones. (As Geek put it, "One of the loftiest, yet most essential concepts introduced by Jesus Christ, and one of the most foundational tenents of first-century Christianity is forgiveness," etc.) As for me, Wierwille owed me an apology, and I asked for it, never got it. He is dead, it is over. I can apply Geek's question to my ex, however, who still stands with TWI. No repentance on his part, no forgiveness from me. And yes, his sins against me were cold and calculated, and would remind you of the mindset of LCM. Perhaps we are being overly picky about Geek's words. If so, I am sure he can clarify, and re-state where he is coming from on this subject. However, I do appreciate YOUR opinion on the topic of forgiveness, Catcup. Regards, Shaz

I dunno, but after reading the "Are You Ready" thread, I've been thinking that being unable to make a rational decision for your life without first parsing a verse might qualify as a stupid habit. I mean really -- haven't we read enough Bible by now that we kinda know what it is about? And do we have any common sense left? Regards, Shaz

The only difference I have been able to see between VPW's behavior and LCM's is that Wierwille hid his better. AND, that Wierwille plagiarized and extrapolated more plausible doctrine. Martindale just made his stuff up. Shaz

FORGIVENESS? 1.) You decide not to think about the offender anymore, and refuse to have anything to do with him -- forgiveness? 2.) You decide you will have a surface relationship only with your offender, so he won't hurt you again. You never bring up the offense -- forgiveness? 3.) You don't tell the offender that he hurt you, but decide to go right back to the kind of relationship you had before -- after all, he's only human and we all sin -- forgiveness? 4.) You tell the offender that he hurt you. He does not apologize. You feel like you cleared the air, at any rate, so you "renew your mind" and pretend it never happened -- forgiveness? 5.) The offender apologizes to you. You're glad he recognized his offense, but you still don't completely trust him -- forgiveness? 6.) The offender apologizes, but you insist that he repay you for the offense -- forgiveness? 7.) The offender apologizes and makes amends. He changes his ways. Slowly, you come to accept that he has turned over a new leaf. You resume the relationship you had before -- forgiveness? I don't know if these are all "forgiveness" in the Biblical sense, but I think there are times when any of these different attitudes might be the appropriate response. I think it depends on the severity of the offense, the intent of the offender (during and and after the offense), and the ability of the victim to carry on in the wake of the offense. Regards, Shaz