shazdancer

Aw, Mike, most of us never stopped! We just won't bend over and put a "kick me" sign on our tushies in the name of love anymore. Regards, Shaz

Hey, I said that about the difference between us regular sinners and the sin that disqualifies Wierwille from being the MOGFODAT and writing God's Word (the Mike threads). OOOOhh... ;)--> Shaz

Thanks, everybody, for your insightful (and humorous!) responses. I remember Wierwille chewing us out in Family Corps once because none of us "discerned" that one of the guys in a band we'd just heard was supposedly "born of the wrong seed." 'Course, Wierwille had discerned it. And of course, he didn't use that knowledge for anything useful, except to belittle us with it. Hmm, didn't he teach that there had to be a profit to revelation? Dear Hairy, So you totalled your car, made it to the Rock anyway, and Wierwille just used you to show off how much "revelation" he got, huh? Huh??? He shoulda been applauding you for busting chops to get there! 'Course, if he lied about you, it could be that he lied about other times that God supposedly spoke to him. Ya think? Dear socks, Oh dear, now I've got that image in my mind of Wierwille snapping his fingers. "Ya gotta be sharp, people!" And of course, he was about as sharp in the love of God department as a blunt instrument. Dear exy, It's been so long, I can't remember when that wasn't my first thought in the morning! Regards to all, Shaz

Sorry, Mike, but also wrapped up in your statement, "true closure will only come as people get that pure love of God working again in their lives," is the assumption that people have stopped operating that "pure love of God." I'm not sure what that means. It sounds about as nebulous as the description of the WAP class that socks referred to. If my brother truly hurts me, I would demand that he repent and apologize, or at the very least show me that he is a changed man. I could continue to love him, but it would be from a safe distance. Regards, Shaz

In the Advanced Class of PFAL, Wierwille taught that the first thought was from God, the second thought from the adversary. In the Corps, one of the principles was "to acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness." Wierwille used to exemplify this to us by dropping little "hints" that he was receiving revelation. AND that we weren't measuring up because we weren't. Looking back, it seemed more like Wierwille's "first thoughts" were more involved with his own insecurities and need for ego strokes than anything godly. In turn, his "Corps nazis" seemed anxious to demonstrate that they, too, were operating "all 9 all the time" in their areas. I think that a lot of the horrendous decisions made on the field by unqualified leaders were the result of this thinking by leaders that they were operating revelation, and that their close connection to God Almighty empowered them to speak to every problem, such as marital problems, alcoholism, mental illness, and abuse. So, "how 'bout it?" any more stories about leadership "heavy revvy" that wasn't? Regards, Shaz

Mike, Wierwille said it from the stage. I recall he was sitting behind the desk on the stage set at the time. I believe it was during the actual taped segment, not during any of the "asides" he was wont to do before or between segments. I also recall lots of applause from the audience when he asked, "You understood what I meant, didn't you?" as if he was winning the argument with Research. I recall it because I was wondering how he would handle that segment, since the original did not make much sense, and because I had heard inklings already that there would be a change to "with distinction." I'm telling you about it because I know it's important to you. 'Course, if he'd already declared that PFAL '77 would not be a replacement for the original filmed class, it's not THAT important. If you want to study it, check out Bullinger's original definitions for "without exception" and "without distinction." Or check Geo's post for the abbreviated version. Geo nailed Bullinger's take on it. Shaz

There was an exhibit on Anne Frank here recently. My son and I went to hear a woman speak on her experience at Bergen-Belsen. She had written a book about it, and used to give many speeches. Now, she said, she rarely did it anymore, as she had promised her husband she would spend her retirement (she had been a college professor) more with him, and concentrate more on happy times. It was clear that recounting the experience was still very upsetting for her. I have gained an appreciation for those who have given up part of their peace of mind to continue to tell their stories, so that the re-writers of history will not predominate. Never again. And yes, she did tell us a happier story of that time -- it was in meeting her husband, who was an American soldier with the liberating troops. Shaz

Geo, a Wierwille apologist. RFMAO!!!! Wierwille changed it publically at the live class, PFAL '77. He said it in a "the research department made me say this, but you know what I meant, dontcha" kind of way. Wouldn't it have made the point simpler just to say, "All without exception, all with exception?" Did they manage to edit out every time he said "out" in the later editions of PFAL? And how is Mike gonna justify Wierwille's using it one way for all those years, then changing the "revelation?" Regards, Shaz

Alfa, could you walk us through what the "problems" were with TB, in CA and after? Thanks, Shaz

Agreed, Vickles. Saying "I'm sorry" can be construed as a legal admission of guilt in a court of law. And TWI doesn't want to be in the business of making reparations, does it? Nah, that would be too Christian a thing to do. Funny that the group that claimed to walk by God's higher ways of love now hides behind their earthly lawyer's briefcase. Oopsie me for noticing. Shaz

What does it mean for those of us that were there at the time, but knew nothing, Radar? Nothing. There is no law against naivet?or stupidity. The only culpability is toward those who knew there was coercion, drugging, or minors involved. Adultery, in and of itself, is not a crime, just a reason to not be in charge of a ministry. I smack myself upside da head quite a bit. And I contribute to this forum, in hopes that my little part of the story will help others understand what happened to them. Regards, Shaz

I agree, Jonny. Wierwille used the Advanced Class as the class to begin to introduce his supposedly superior knowledge about how the world really works. Conspiracies, devil spirit possessions, and "seed boys" lurking around every corner. I think he embraced "the Thirteenth Tribe," whether he read it all or not, because it sounded like a more scholarly base for his bigotry than "Myth of the Six Million," which he also espoused. I agree with Abi and Hope. Proselytes or DNA-pure, Jews are Jews because of their beliefs. I read most of "Tribe," and my reaction was, "so what?" And the verse completely ignored by Wierwille, "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Jews continue to be God's chosen people, and if Romans is true, they will be judged by the Law. Gentiles will be judged by the law that they are unto themselves, and Christians will be judged according to their faith in Jesus Christ. God is so much bigger (and more just) than the little box Wierwille wanted to put Him into. Regards, Shaz

Thanks, Jim. I think the guards' situation points a lot to what The Way Corps had become for many: a clique that was more concerned with being right than with being human. Some are playing "good guards" in TWI to this day: hoping to affect change from within, but not risking too much, for fear of being disenfranchised. Regards, Shaz

LOL, Radar! Wouldn't it have felt good to have sent him back a note saying, "Don't worry, I wasn't planning to stand!" ;)--> :D--> Shaz

Dear Linda, I agree, there were some people that should never have held leadership positions. Immature, socially inept, or just plain evil, some of them. Made me wonder, if The Way Corps was supposed to be such an elite group to get into, and its members were supposed to be so scrutinized during their apprentice year, then what were some of those people doing in the Corps to begin with, and why were they put in positions of authority? Dear Johnny, That quote from the branch leader at your fellowship came straight out of Wierwille's mouth. I recall him saying it, but in fairness, I'm sure he never mean it to be used to shut up a little boy who was answering the question asked! But remember how people would copy VPW's sayings and mannerisms? Heck, even Don*i* F*g*t started sounding like VP up half an octave, right down to the laugh. I caught myself doing it when I was still in high school. Imagine people imitating VP or LCM or other clergy without regard to the situation, and I think you have the answer to what happened with a lot of Corps. They just forgot to bring their brains to the training. Regards, Shaz

I dunno, Mike, what would be so bad if TWI were to apologize? They might show their followers that they are in fact fallible, and that they haven't mastered the revelation manifestations by a long shot. It would also preclude them from passing judgment on their innies at the drop of a hat, and usher in a whole new era of mutual love and respect. I'm not holding my breath. Regards, Shaz

Perhaps many of the things we die of now, either they didn't know that their symptoms were actually a disease, or they died before they were old enough to get sick from them! For example, the DNA of Borrellia burgdorferi, the bacterium which causes Lyme disease, has been found on some hundred-year-old pelts. Perhaps people were getting infected back then, but didn't realize what it was. I have also seen many young children who would have probably never survived infancy back then, who continue to have medical problems. I suppose we may be creating more people who are living longer, but needing more medical assistance to do so ('course, I wouldn't think of changing that). When people talk about the "good old days," I wonder if they really know what they mean... Regards, Shaz PS -- yeah, the book sounds interesting.

Relax, Johnny. My point was that the leaders wanted to keep the corps off-balance, not that the training was cruel. And, as I said, as a dancer, I was used to discipline. I'd just entered corps training right from a college dance schedule of 3 hours a day of dance technique class, followed by academic classes, followed by rehearsals into the evening. Five days a week, sometimes more. And I was an involved Wayfer on top of that (CWOW, apprentics corps). I actually found the corps training itself to be no big deal, except that I had to gradually cut down on the physical stuff as my pregnancy progressed. I thought the "academic" classes were about the level of easy high school. I hope that clarifies, Shaz

I think I can explain why diarrhea was the #3 killer back then, Cowgirl. It is still a big killer of babies and young children in third-world countries. If unchecked, severe diarrhea can result in fatal dehydration. Unfortunately, many uneducated mothers thought that the best treatment for diarrhea was to restrict fluids. Regards, Shaz

Z, just remember, I will be posting in August about how it's a lovely 80 degrees up here.... I used to drive just north of Phoenix to see the rare snow on the saguaros -- neat. Gone by noon. The preschool my daughter attended in Scottsdale would have someone drive up to Prescott in a pickup and come back with a truckload of snow. They'd dump it on the sidewalk and let the kids come out and play in it! Maine has had a pretty mild winter, for Maine, so far this year. But the cold hit pretty nicely a coupla days ago. Yesterday, as I drove up past Bangor for a gymnastics meet, it hit as low as -22. Today we're getting the tail end of what you all have, maybe a foot will fall here by the end of the day. Break out the French toast (on oversized slices), hot apple cider, and cocoa. I am ready!

Wierwille was not unaware of the "corps nazi" mindset. He was the author of it. By 1979, he was already talking about being "dog soldiers" for the Lord -- acting like some Native American warriors who staked themselves to the ground and vowed to fight there until death if necessary. Even before that, he was fond of saying that faithful believers were like privates in the armed forces: when the sergeant tells them to jump, they don't ask how high, they just jump! In the Corps, there was a two-fold approach to gaining blind loyalty, IMHO. One was to tell the Corps how incredibly special they were, a kind of exclusive club. Wierwille talked about how he would do anything for us, and we should be especially kind to one another (cp. with what the Bible says). On the other hand, Wierwille, corps coordinators, or elder corps might insult or berate any corps at any time with little provocation. Corps were always being tested to prove their loyalty. At any moment, we might be called on to recite a retemory, do an extra chore, stay up later (and get up earlier), and answer a question to prove that we were paying attention. Wierwille was always expressing his disappointment with us. I had mixed reactions to all this. On the one hand, I did not feel that the "caste system" was a godly thing, and was determined that I would never repeat such a thing against other believers. However, I felt that the in-residence strictness of the training was a way to build more diligent leadership, and as a dancer, hard work in and of itself did not bother me. Meantime, I was there under special dispensation (I was pregnant), so part of me didn't feel I was in a place to rock the boat too much. Lastly, knowing my intent was only to be Recognized Corps (only one in-res year), I figured I'd be done soon, anyway. After my in-res year, I was quickly made aware that all Wierwille's claim about Corps love and loyalty was just crap. And we were being pressured to "jump when told to" even after graduating. I said no, and I left. Years later, reading on Waydale, I read that the corps techniques were being visited upon the regular believers. Regards, Shaz

LOL, GStG, it took me 10 seconds to get that! I think working in a nursery school is rotting my brain...! I'm also a lefty, though I taught myself to use scissors right-handed, because it was always so hard to find left-handed ones. I don't eat cheese. Probably a minor lactose intolerance thing, but it just makes me ill! Also makes me a party-pooper at pizza parties. I don't know any Morse code, but I know some American sign language. Took a course in it in college with a deaf man, a story of its own. One of these days, I'm going to get back into it. I don't do normal crafts like sewing or knitting. I crochet and do origami. Not at the same time. ;)--> Regards, Shaz

Dear suz, But I'm thankful I don't have to turn my head and cough! Dear Shellon, Thanks for this quote, "Bullshi+. If you know something is not right, then it's not. Find someone that believes you." That attitude made me demand the blood test for Lyme disease, after having been told I had an unknown infection by one doc, and a possible fractured hand by another! I was also told by more than one doc that "it couldn't possibly be Lyme." Guess again. Regards, Shaz

HCW, Some of those women have reported that they were drugged. Others have said that they resisted Wierwille when he made lewd advances. Many of them were kicked out of TWI and lies spread by Wierwille to prevent others from listening to them. Many were in the RIGHT place at the right time, and horribly used. I was alone in the motorcoach with Wierwille. Did he assault me? No. I was there because we were INVITED by the MOG to come aboard and ask him any questions we wanted. It never dawned on me that being alone with him was a risky thing to do. Why was I not propositioned? I will never know. Not pretty enough, already married to a tough, tattooed New Yorker whose skills Wierwille sought? I dunno. But I know that many who have talked about being assaulted had a sexually-compromised past that was included in their "From Birth to the Corps" paper. My bio didn't have that. Wierwille was holding a binder the evening I talked to him. Long after I left TWI, I was assaulted. By a supposed believer. At the time, I was doing exactly what I should have been doing. Gee, if I step on someone's toe, even if I didn't mean to, I say I'm sorry. Your "what was it about YOU" remark was hurtful to some who have had the guts to come forward and tell their stories. Regards, Shaz

Yeah, singing baby songs in adult situations was tedious, but I did enjoy CB's first album, as WishingForFreedom mentioned. Georgio, were you Mini-Family 6 or 4? If you were, you were in Rome City at the same time I was. I musta been sleeping if you mentioned that before.... I mentioned once before how VPW couldn't even leave CB's work alone. He had to change some of the lyrics -- some of it seemed pretty arbitrarily. So here's some Way trivia (and 'cuz I need to get "clap your hands, one-two-three" out of my head now, Steve!): the original first stanza to CB's ABC song... "A" is for Apple, the life's in the seed, "B" is for Bible, the best book to read, "C" is for Christ in you always to stay, "D" is Delight in the Lord every day. I was especially fond of "Little Tin Soldier." It has the staying power of other folk songs classics like "The Marvelous Toy." And I will admit that once I had kids of my own, it could make me downright teary-eyed. Regards, Shaz