shazdancer

Jaw's harp here! :P :D Shaz

Well, I thought it was funny. And I was waiting for the violent punch line to come up. AND I have been choked before, so the image is momentarily and mildly unsettling. But it's still funny! Mike, if that jokes incites someone to murder, he was gonna murder anyway, and just needed an excuse. If someone is that far gone, they will find an excuse in the wallpaper if necessary, and nothing you say or don't say will prevent it. You made it sound like we Greasespotters are all one short step from being possessed killers. Is that what you meant? Shaz

LOL, tonto! Even seeing the video, years after I'd been out, I couldn't believe it, then I kept waiting for him to move again, so I could laugh again! And he never disappointed me. As far as telling him he sucked, as a New-York trained dancer, I would not have had a problem with it. I would have been doing him a favor. But I doubt he would've heard me, he had his yes-women all around him. Regards, Shaz

Sorry, Bro Speed. I met the Georges. Nice folks. They were well known around HQ. Sunesis, I found it interesting that BH wasn't swayed to leave when she was kidnapped and deprogramming was attempted, but she wasn't swayed to stay by her later ordination, once VPW blew off her research into the snowstorm. Like her, when I got the evidence first-hand that all was not right in Way-world, I had to make a decision. It took me about two years to make it, too. Regards, Shaz

Coolchef, I'm with you, he could have walked through it (kinda like Rex Harrison speaking his songs). But the idea that they "couldn't find" anyone was horsepucky. There were enough connections to NYC believers alone to come up with a Twiggie who could do the job. There were also believers who were connected to U of Utah dance department, and other places. And the original guy could have done a better job than LCM in a heartbeat. Makes me think that LCM kinda "hinted" that he wanted the job, as has been suggested. And once it became clear (and it had to be clear to the dancers, even with Waybrain) that Craig was not going to be able to do the part, why was no one able to admit that the emperor had no clothes? I'm betting that there were a lot of conversations behind closed doors, but that LCM had them convinced that "spirituality" was maore important than ability. Add to that, that the choreographer's eyes were blinded by something less than "spiritual," and I think we have us a star.... Regards, Shaz

The BOD has exactly what Wierwille had originally wanted: a group that can continuously keep them in the non-profit business, and enough money and services flowing to make them all happy. Teaching the Bible is secondary. Shaz

One other thing to consider... Do you have other symptoms in the mix, such as fatigue, or word-finding problems, pains in the joints, muscles, or nerves? Were you healthy before, then suddenly just seem to be falling apart? You may want to consider chronic Lyme disease. Regards, Shaz

Thanks for the information update, Peter! Hope all is well with you and yours, and that you will be able to help ex-Wayers understand what was going on in the beginnings of the ministry. Many don't quite understand that the corruption went all the way back to Wierwille and the first Board of Trustees. Regards, Shaz "In" in 1972, "out" by 1984.

Note to Oldies, I think that worrying about how much was plagiarized is beside the point. The point is, Wierwille did plagiarize, word for word, more than once in his writings. It was unethical, unbecoming a minister. It was stealing, and sold to his followers as his own words. Don't try to obscure the point by trying to prove that he only did it a little bit. He shouldn't have done it at all. Most of us knew better than that in high school. Shaz

So Lamsa was just another cult leader, HAH! It seems to me that Wierwille might not have been looking for answers to Biblical questions when he met with so many of these men. Rather, he was looking for the secret to how to be a powerful leader like they all were. Regards, Shaz

The answer to the Lamsa thingie is on John Juedes' website... I'm not as crazy as I think I am.:D Shaz

Thanks for the link. dmiller. In one sentence, Juedes says, See? I'm not as crazy as I think I am.... :D Shaz

People being people, I can suppose that some Mormons are sincere in their desire to be better people, as were/are some Wayfers. I also think that doing good works are good for ME as well as for the person I help. And even when I was in, the other guy getting born again or taking "The Class" was secondary to me. I thought that was God's problem, and out of my control. Now that I think about it, I remember feeling guilty for not being more zealous, not witnessing more, not winning more, etc. etc. And I felt hypocritical "going witnessing," making friends that weren't really going to stay friends unless they joined up. Sheesh, I like me more this way, just trying to be a good person with no strings attached! Regards, Shaz

Thanks, Dove. I've been in a few Christian book stores in my time, rarely saw Lamsa there. In your opinion, do his works make the catalogue because there is a consensus that his stuff is good, or affordable, or just plain marketable? (Or perhaps the people with his copyright are just vocal?) Lamsa's is the only Bible I know of to say "for this purpose was I spared," and his commentaries are not particularly scholarly, just long tomes that say "this means that." Reminded me of TWI -- I'm not gonna explain the verse to you, just scratch it out and write in what I tell ya! Regards, Shaz

You got it, Oak! Bullinger mentions differences between the KJV and the ERV in his Companion Bible, if I recall. And a lot of Wayfers got into reading that version for awhile. I would count George Lamsa among the strange people VPW sought for doctrinal info. I was surprised to find his Bible and commentaries still in print and available in occult bookstores. Does anyone know why that is? Regards, Shaz

Thanks, WW and ala. I'd always wondered what that ol' misogynist had really been doing with Rosalind Rinker. I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering. Regards, Shaz

Bullinger may not have been a cultist, but he certainly was on the fringe of mainstream Christian scholarship in England. The most important Biblical work going on in Great Britain in the second half of the 19th century was the revision of the King James Version. Committees were formed to go over each section of the KJV with a fine-toothed comb, and to compare it to the critical Greek texts that were in extant. Some of the compilers of those texts were invited onto those committees. Committee members included everything from Roman Catholic scholars to a Unitarian. They consulted with a commitee in the United States, as well. Bullinger's name appears nowhere in this project as far as I could see. Regards, Shaz

The original AOS production was in the late ‘70’s. I saw that one. There were a couple of decent dancers, but it was on the whole an amateur group, and I thought that Mur*** had done a sensitive job of choreographing steps that weren’t over the dancers’ heads. I went backstage to tell her so. (A few of us who were professional dancers had been corresponding about dance in TWI over the last few years.) While we were chatting, Loy came up. He expressed his pleasure with the production, and wanted to know if Mur*** had “invented” the flexed foot. He clearly knew nothing about dance. I dropped out before the full-blown version got going, so I didn’t know anything about it until I heard it discussed on Waydale. Someone was kind enough to send me a copy of the video. I almost fell off my chair at the “standing erect at the bema” line! The constant repetition of simple steps just wasn’t strong enough in such a lavish production. The production dragged on, and I couldn’t wait for it to be over. And I couldn’t stop groaning and laughing every time LCM moved, he was so bad. (Thank you for that “ruptured chimpanzee” line, Groucho, you could write reviews!) Clearly Mur***, and Loy were in way over their heads. It was embarrassing, to say the least. Since concert dance is a hard enough sell in this country as it is, I felt I had witnessed the end of Way Productions Dance. I guess Loy thought that any believer could do anything if he just “renewed his mind” to it. Oopsie, wrong! Regards, Shaz PS -- I was also surprised that NO ONE had had the temerity to go to Loy and say, "Don't do it. You suck." I guess it speaks to how far down we had all esteemed ourselves in TWI hierarchy.

It is quite typical of the narcissistic personality to be mentally lazy, to take shortcuts. He thinks his potential for greatness is equal to deserving the rewards of greatness. He may be the cheater on exams, or the boss who makes everyone else do the work and then takes credit for it, or the scam artist. Although people may do these things and not be narcissists, the truly personality disordered have a pervasive tendency to be armchair quarterbacks, not doers. It takes years of effort to play the guitar, so if Wierwille picked one up and didn't get good at it fairly quickly, he was happy to associate with a music ministry and "talk shop" with them, or make them change their lyrics and claim his ministry made them great. Did anyone actually hear him play a guitar? We certainly heard him sing -- he couldn't. It takes years of dedicated practice to play basketball well, so it was easier for Vic to claim an association with a college and pro team and not actually be on one. (I agree, WW, his "associated with" remark could mean anything, and left wiggle room if someone looked it up. When no one did, his lies grew bolder, like "the inventor of the hook shot.") Perhaps he had enough natural talent to compete in high school, but when it came time to actually work at it, it was easier to just say he did after the fact. It takes years of patient dedication to become a good pastor. But Vic's tendency to buck authority would not let him wait. HE knew how to run a congregation, how dare they tell the man of God what to do! I am sure he embellished the encounter with the elders, but I can certainly see him thwarting their wishes early on. Heck, if they fired him, he could always go back to Dotsie and lie about what happened, and have her go back to nursing. Regards, Shaz

Bueller? The books in those days were Vols I, II, and III, the Holy Spirit book, the PFAL book and the syllabus. Worth thirty dollars, tops. I paid $65. Interesting that he mentions that the class was already paid for. I would've taken it for free -- heck, I got a lot out of high school, and I was taking THAT for free, too, at the time. So I never quite understood that argument that they "had to" charge for the class, or no one would take it seriously. I even spouted that party line to others. Duh. Regards, Shaz

Those are lutzes, Dan. Good Scrabble word. Funny image. Regards, Dancing hippo

As far as LCM attending goes, I thought funerals were for the living, to support the grieving family, and to grieve one's self. TWI certainly teaches this, that the dead are not alive. In the Corps, one of the best seminars we ever took was one from a (non-TWI) funeral director to explain this. Who was Craig there for? Not for Mrs. W, she is gone. Not for the family, surely, unless he has so deceived himself that he thought they would be comforted by his presence. And not for most of the TWI and non-TWI attendees, for he was dethroned from TWI, making him anathema to them, and was exposed as an abuser to the ex-Way community, making him anathema to the rest. I admire the family and those in attendance for showing great mercy and restraint. But he was not there for them, unless he deluded himself into thinking that his presence would comfort. He was there for himself, and his motives are known only to himself and the God he should fear. Regards, Shaz PS to Ted -- It must have been wonderful to have you there. It sounds like you added something very beautiful and personal to the memorial. Truly a class act.

"Oriental fruitcakes," Danny? You made a funny...! :D--> :D--> :D--> I do think that TWI was so caught up in the You Are Righteous Now aspect of Christianity that they threw out balancing that with fear -- fear of displeasing the One you love, fear of your works coming to naught because they weren't godly, and a healthy respect for what God could have done to you, were it not for His mercy. Wierwille loved the "freedom in Christ" doctrine, of course, because he wanted the freedom to do a whole lot of ill without repercussions. Regards, Shaz

Dear Jan, I couldn't tell you what year Elena left, but she spent a number of years in Ohio, fellowshipping with W****r Cu***ngs and touring around the country teaching at ex-Way fellowships. She worked as a ghost writer and biographer (mostly for corporate executives, I think). In the late 90's, she returned to the family home in CT to care for her aging mother. I know she followed the postings on WayDale (the ex-Way website before this one) but I don't think she ever posted there. Dear sky, I think of my being told that "Doctor had never wanted there to be a Recognized Corps" and that I had made a "lifetime commitment" (I did???) as a good thing, in hindsight. Those statements, and a few more that came at about the same time, pointed out to me what was really going on at the top level of leadership (deception), and prompted me to walk away with most of my integrity still intact. Regards, Shaz

Funny you should mention that about Moody, Thomas. I was thinking the same thing about the University of Chicago Divinity School. He hints that he studied there, though that fact doesn't show up in later bios. I'm guessing he just attended a couple of one-day seminars, which they still do, according to their website. Regards, Shaz