shazdancer

therebutforgrace wrote Sounds so familiar -- newbies get nothing but bland messages, but the further initiated you are, the more spew you have to accept in the name of "loving reproof," "iron sharpeneth iron," etc. It's the Corps all over again. When I got to HQ, I was expecting people to be more loving to each other, recognizing that everyone was a long-time believer with deep commitment and leadership ability, but instead it was worse than the outside world. It's one thing to feel you can dispense with formalities among those you are close to, but another when you think you can dispense with lovingkindness. I remember the beginnings of what has become STFI's prophetic council, back around 1980 in TWI. Believers were enamored of spiritual things. After SIT and TIP, what was there? Revelation was cool, but it was such a subjective thing, kinda hard to share with others. Discerning of spirits was big, leaders seemed to be seeing devils everywhere, though I didn't see a lot of casting them out, which is what DOS was supposed to be for, we were taught. The "manifestation of believing" wasn't taught very clearly, and again, it wasn't very flashy. Miracles and healing were definitely flashy, but chancy: you might get it wrong, and look like a schmuck. Turning to the gift ministries, a lot of people were speculating about who might have the prophetic gift. Wierwille had apostle sewn up. Evangelist and teacher were good if you were comfortable as an orator, pastor if you weren't. But a prophet had the dual appeal of being real "spiritual," and standing out as a leader in the midst of a ton of people who were groomed as teachers. I know this description sounds harsh, and I know this mindset didn't apply to everybody. But before you dismiss it, just remember, it was called "Power for Abundant Living," not "Grace for Abundant Living," or "Love for Abundant Living." People (myself included) got in because we wanted power. Regards, Shaz And JAL, I spoke to you on the last go 'round on Greasespot. Perhaps you still know who I am. You performed my wedding the first time around. I'm telling you, it's time to stop and rethink this ministry thing, what it's doing to others, and what it's done to you.

I think JAL's ex would disagree with KA's self-evaluation that she is a first-tier prophet "with a track record for giving accurate prophecies that extends back at least ten years."

It would be CultBrain if you think these responses answered your question:1. Question: Is it true that you are relying on personal prophecies that are hurting people? CultBrain answer: Don't believe everything you read. RealBrain follow-up question: Then which statements are true, and which are false? 2. Question: Is it true that you are relying on personal prophecies that are hurting people? CultBrain answer: We have disbanded the Prophetic Council. RealBrain follow-up question: So you used to have personal prophecies that hurt people? What are you doing to fix those who were hurt? 3. Question: Do you still rely on these personal prophecies that hurt people? CultBrain answer: Read my book about it. RealBrain follow-up comment: That must mean yes, since your book is still on the market. Apparently your book is not complete on the subject, or you would not have had to back-pedal and disband a Prophetic Council that hurt many!

Shell, that was really funny! You want to embarrass her further, tell her you've been "naughty AND nice!" ;) My kids were the ones that most made me look at why I believed or did anything, because if I didn't understand it, how was I going to explain it to them?

George, I hope you are hearing in our replies that your contributions here have made a difference. Because they have! I hope you will be able to get your affairs in order the way you want. And I hope we can help with good dialogue, and good listening. You are definitely worth it. Thoughts of peace your way, Shaz

Many thanks, WD! Mine arrived today. What a sweet reminder of some wonderful folks, and the reason why we're here. Peace.

That's what play is, dooj. Thanks for understanding, Shaz

From Linda Z... Agreed, but what strikes me is, that in TWI, and now apparently in CES, minor problems among the common folk were said to have deep spiritual origins and were gone over ad nauseum, while glaring errors by leadership were glossed over. Straining the gnat and swallowing the camel, as it were.I love your analogy, as I now work for a company with a million-dollar budget, and among other things, I put the money in the postage machine! And "problems" that really affect the function of the organization are discussed and solved with respect, trust, and humor, not the backbiting and melodrama displayed at the upper eschelons of CES. I am curious as to what ticked off KAG to want to go after Elizabeth. If I had to hazard a guess (and only a guess, mind you), I am thinking that perhaps E. was not silent about what she was seeing at the leadership level. She didn't take on the Mrs. Wierwille persona. And leadership (ready to make molehills into mountains) got pi**ed. Praying for you guys, and for her, Shaz

I already talked about this, more than once, most recently HERE. I can add that it was easy to tell my girls that Santa was real (and we were "in" at the time) because they had met him! A wonderful man named Joe Greenawalt did the Santa thing in Scottsdale in the early 80's, and would come to our house for a personal visit one or two days before Christmas! He went around all year with a snow-white beard and candycanes in his pocket, "made from real reindeer milk." The Way guilt in me would mostly qualify the story to my girls by saying, "We say that Santa..." whenever the girls would ask for stories about him, and lots of "I don't know..."s when they were too young yet to figure it out. Eventually, they told me when they knew. I hope those of you who are thinking about sustaining this tradition for children or grandchildren can understand that this not about LYING, but about PRETENDING, which is something essential that children do as part of learning about bigger issues. If you can enter into it in the essence of play, you might just learn something important, too! Merry Christmas, Shaz

Thank you, onefinecustom. And welcome to Greasespot.

Strange, though, that this group's idea of "trying to find its feet" is to look for other classes and groups from which to patch together a program, and even a theology. Almost like the Bible isn't enough, there have got to be thrills.... Shaz

Yeah, dooj, I was thinking the same thing. Sounds like she was not going to fellowships for a bit, perhaps just because of the move. They may be checking her out, or putting her on probation (has to read the Way mag, listen to teaching tapes, tithe/abundantly share) before they let her back in. Ryan, my second husband had left The Way to marry me, I guess. I'd been out for over 5 years by then. I explained to him about how I brought up my daughters (first marriage) with the Santa Claus story. To me, he represents giving without expectation of even a thank you, a very Christian concept. When my girls were old enough to question, I told them that now they were old enough to be Santa for others. My husband listened and nodded. Then he went behind my back and told our son that Santa was really Saint Nicholas, a man who lived and died hundreds of years ago. My son went on his schoolbus the next day and told the kids that Santa was dead. I got a call from the school about it. My son was 5 years old at the time. It took me 5 more years of a lot more unChristian things from this guy to finally give him the boot. He went back into The Way. He is still a lousy excuse for a father. Your mileage may vary, or it may not. Go to fellowship with her. Ask questions. After all you've heard, I am sure you will be surprised at how nice they can be. Just remember that there are some unsavory traits lying just beneath the surface. And oh yeah, he once ordered me not to post here, "in the name of Jesus Christ." Oopsie, I'm still here! Regards, Shaz Waving at the Way spies

Hi Moryan, and welcome to the Café. You describe yourself as being "raised as a Catholic." By that I take it you mean that you accept some of the doctrines and rituals of your faith, question others, and perhaps reject a few. No one checks if you're being committed enough. No one kicks you out if they don't like your amount of commitment. You may identify with Catholicism more than any other religious viewpoint, but it is Catholicism combined with your point of view. The Way International is much more stringent. Not only is disagreement discouraged, it is grounds for being "marked and avoided," shunned out of the group. The dissenter might be suspected of having devil spirits. Leaders may inquire into all aspects of one's personal life: employment, leisure time, finances, sex life. In order to be considered faithful, much time is required to be spent reading the Bible and Way publications, and attending meetings and classes. If you become more deeply involved with her, expect that this will be her life, and that you will be expected to adopt this life, as well. You have said that you and she get along well, as long as you are not talking about religious beliefs and The Way. Such discussions generally degrade into shouting and crying on her part. I think this is an indication that she is not a "fringe believer" in this group, but quite committed. As such, she wants the same commitment for you, because she truly feels that she has the truth. She will be very eager to get you involved. You might be able to accept her on some middle ground, but she probably will not be able to, as she feels she is right and you are wrong, with no compromising "might be right" allowed. If she is deeply committed to The Way, The Way is her life and her heart. If it is not yours, then you two will never agree on the deeper issues of life. MHO, Shaz

Sheesh, what weirdness! Jeff, you mentioned you were part of this prophecy circle at one time. I'm curious as to how this practice got its start. It sounds like, from people who knew KAG back in the Corps days, that she was into "spiritual" stuff back then. We all were to some extent, I suppose, but some of us were a little more enamored of it than others. Was "personal prophesy" something that started with K getting into being a prophet, and then others got on board with it? How does this jive with what was taught in TWI, that God would speak first with the individual? This thing just reminds me so much of the Salem witch hunts, people pointing fingers at one another in the name of God, with no defense possible. Regards, Shaz

More important to me these days than "knowing the truth," so I can feel more powerful than everybody else, is to work on doing my part to "do the truth," and change my little corner of the universe for the better. It lacks the constant euphoria of one-upmanship, but it is so much more satisfying.

Ooh, thanks for that, socks! Way leader is saying: 1. I'm gonna pretend it never happened. 2. You have to pretend it never happened, too. 3. If you pretend it never happened, my conscience is cleared, and I can now pretend that my evil wasn't all THAT bad, because you are being so nice, you must still like me. 4. If you DON'T pretend that it never happened, boy, you are so mean to make me feel bad and ruin my benevolence. I bet I can find a Bible verse that says you should forgive me. I was right in the evil I did to you, you don't deserve my Christian niceness, you cold-hearted sunuva.... Gee, you think I've been the recipient of this line of thinking? You betcha. :D Shaz

I agree with you, fricka. So Pinklady, if you are planning to confront the busdriver, make sure it is going to help you. And steel yourself, be ready for him to try and turn it around against you. Or he may not even acknowledge that he knows you. Keep your heart, Shaz

I've got one other reason why they need so many "officers." When the IRS comes calling, and wants the BOD to justify having such a big overhead, and so many assets, they have to point to some sort of organizational structure that needs money to keep it in place. When the IRS asks, "How many people do these positions support?" the BOD will say, "We don't know, it is our policy to allow people to freely avail themselves for spiritual nurture, and we have no membership." They have to spend some of that money, in order to keep hold of the vast amount of it.

This just cracks me up... So, what was Craiggers doing in his car, for several days, no less? NOT WORKING!

Please note that it was Rumrunner that played the Lyme disease card, not me... :) Shaz

When James took over as king after "Bloody" Mary Tudor and then Elizabeth I, he wanted something to unite the country. He also had a personal dislike of the Puritans, and their Bible, the Geneva version, which was the Bible in the hands of most of the Protestants who were rich enough to own one. (The Great Bible of Henry VIII's time was the Bible of the churches, if I recall). So his Authorized Version was a political move to unite the people around a new version of the Bible, and through it to unite them to King James, who provided this new version in 1611.

Thanks, Chas. No I didn't specify "originals." But she may have taken it that way. She quoted me $6 per film (there were 2), but the lab never even mentioned a cost, and were very courteous. And yes, it crossed my mind that she may have seen "worker's comp" on her screen, and she sounded suspicious of my motives, but even if I'd wanted to sue the hospital (which I didn't), I don't think that should be her business to ask. And yeah, this is the 2nd-largest city in Maine, but it still acts like a small town most times, sometimes to the good, sometimes not-so-good. :D Shaz

I've got to admit, I was struck by how much better people are about customer service here in Maine. Most people tend to be friendlier in general. So the nasty ones stick out like a sore thumb. This one happened to me just yesterday. I had had a minor accident at work which required getting an x-ray of my hand. Since it was a worker's comp thing, I had no doctor overseeing it, I went right to the ER. X-rays turned out fine, and I'm fine, but I decided to get a copy of those x-rays. I have arthritis and thought that there might be a benefit to comparing them with earlier x-rays taken 5 years ago. And besides, I've learned it's a good idea to keep a copy of my records. So I called Radiology. A lady asks if they are for my doctor, and I say no, they are for my own records. Then she starts trying to tell me that I can't have them, they have to go to a doctor. :blink: Then she asks me what I want them for. :blink: :blink: (That's got to be a violation of HIPAA.) Then she tells me I can have copies, not the originals, but I have to pay for them. :blink: :blink: :blink: (That is a violation of HIPAA -- the patient has a right to copies of her records.) She's also just wrong, as I'd gotten x-rays from them 6 months ago, free. So rather than argue, I just agree to pay, and when can I pick them up? Long story short (and one more call to this gal, who began the same spiel all over again), I got my x-rays from the lab -- showed them some ID, signed here and there, no charge. And don't even get me started on the crappy ER doc...! God forbid I need an ER again, I will go to their competitor. -- Shaz

It seems that many of these splinter groups were created to "preserve the truth." What truth? For some, that "truth" is the Word as explained by VPW in the PFAL class. For others, it included PFAL plus the amendments from whoever's additional insight. For still others, it was PFAL plus the feel-good of a particular time period, when we were young and free of responsibilities and could hang out after Twig until midnight and go witnessing in a bar and sing Pressed Down's songs in 3-part harmony. It seems to me that "truth" is not the problem. The problem is in trying to preserve any particular formula for happiness and spirituality. Preserving a formula is the essence of religion. It tends to leave God out. Regards, Shaz

Nice find, WordWolf. I just want to clarify something right off. Narcissistic personality disorder is NOT mental illness. Mental illness is when a normal, mentally-healthy person has emotional problems on top of a normal personality. It implies that, with proper treatment, the normal personality will be able to flourish again. Personality-disordered people were never normal, not since they were teens or perhaps even before. In the case of VP, we have heard stories from New Knoxville townies that he was a bully and a daredevil as a teenager, and a womanizer already by his twenties. One can also have co-morbidity, with personality traits of other disorders, such as paranoid, borderline, histrionic, or antisocial (sociopathic) personalities. (Excuse my use of the male pronoun here. Women can be narcissists, too.) The Narcissist usually only goes to a therapist if he has been deeply wounded, and his false self exposed. But he usually quits before the therapist can get very far, because he thinks that it is everybody else's fault that he is not happy. If he stays, he may be taught to stop some of the behaviors that injure others, but it is arguable if he is ever truly cured. The Narcissist feels completely justified in using you. He thinks everybody uses everybody, just like he does. -- Shaz Hey, Mo, Then never reveal to that coworker anything that might be used against you, because a Narcissist stores facts that might be useful against someone later. Remember VP and our "From Birth to the Corps" papers?