mstar1

BUT --Psychotherapy at least has professional minimum standards and guidelines that must be met in order for a therapist to be licensed by the state and to practice...They have to be registered and insured--if there is any malpractice eventually the authorities will see to it that they are in business no longer. Not every form of psychotherapy involves a dark journey to the hidden past, there are as many forms and methods of practice as there are different approaches to christianity--some are more effective than others (imo), some are mainstream some more on the far fringes...I would nt categorize all of them as cultic anymore than I would all of christianty (although some of them definitely are..)..In other words there is probably something that would be of benefit for near anybody--If you shop wisely. AFAIK there were no minmum standards at all in TWI other than being a PFAL grad and a Wierwille yesman. The book Competent to Counsel as I remember used some verse out of Romans (maybe) that said basically we were 'competent to counsel' one another. So competency mystically appeared instantaneously instead of through years of education, research and study in counseling..Like most things way the easy no effort way was enough...even though it had disastrous results. There was no form of review no licensing no testing no education--nothing--just the final word of one mog---It really was a sick and dangerous system. The denominations that I work closely with all generally have a board of overseers,or vestry , sets of laws and bylaws that closely scrutinize, and review all church activity within very strict guidelines. If there are even the minorest of violations entire review and disciplinary procedures are already in place. There is an very lengthy process for ordination, involving years of schooling, reviews observation as well as multiple viewpoint as to whether a candidate is suited to ministry. Then they are licensed within the denomination and that only as long as they stay in good standing. They are of course subject to the law and also to very stringent church law and standards No wonder Wierwille quit the denomination! There are mistakes of course butfor the most part they work fairly well--or at least way better than a group like TWI that has its power and answers centralized in one man and a pseudo board of very similar minded "trustees". As far as people still in their own cults still--ANY group, ANYWHERE that sets up their own 'ministry' is HIGHLY HIGHLY suspect in my book. Christian Ministry is a respected profession that has as many real life standards as a State licensed and medically reviewed surgeon must have.. If someone wants to have back room surgery at Joes Hack Shack, have at it, but dont say I didnt warn you----the same goes for these shortsighted 'ministries' Id seek out the real thing ps...and thanks for changin that Rhino--'preciate it..

Rhino i have a busy day and cant answer right now but will consider your points as time allows meanwhile do me a favor--Edit your post--You dont need to out anyone, even someone you have differences with--its bad form--

I dont know how to categorize all the levels of dysfunction and the multitentacles of inner dynamic that drove TWI--but it was extremely complex-- and we were very highly trained into it. Nothing was as it seemed --and we were taught to never ever trust our own perceptions ( earthly sensual and devilish.) Put God, the Devil, a distrust of anything outside the walls, thats was drummed into our heads for years-and throw any difficult real life situation into that false world and simple things are no longer simple things but are (or at least seem) incredibly complex. ...I dont know how many women Ive met at the shelter in horribly dysfunctional and abusive relationships. who cannot leave, or it takes them months or years because the their inner harmony is so dislodged that they cant figure out the obvious. The inner dynamics are as real a part of the puzzle as the outward stuff.. Its always easier to have a solution from the outside where those things dont effect you or from a distance of decades... At the time, especially in a complete mindf*ck zone and unreal world like TWI, there were no simple answers...Its easy NOW to say at a distance --Why didnt you just call the cops? Its also easy for me to asked an abused woman --Why didnt you just leave? Neither situation was right , but the level of dysfunction was too high and the cognitive distortion too ingrained to expect everyone to immediately shut it off and instantaneously think and act clearly. People do what they can--sometimes it not optimum or completely up to snuff That they act at all while they are working through it and its attendant perils shouldnt be looked down on but thanked imo. Those first steps out of dysfunction are never easy ones and can be wrought with a lot of stumbling.... Sure I'd like to see someone stand up-but if stumbling forward is the best they can do, it still beats laying down and doing nothing.. ymmv

I was never corps or never clergy but being a formerly sold out rock solid wafer I can understand the psychological maelstrom that I had to fight through (at times still fighting through) Wierwilles narcississtic personality and own psychological makeup of needing complete control and just dictating to people 'der verd' as the complete answer to everything had to have been a prime reason why he was so against psychology --resulting in his bogus doctrines regarding it that were taken as gospel. It was something he feared --and rightfully--Why would he want anyone --even himself ---peering into his dark mangy soul --or even thinking about it? He could be "righteous now" as if by magic without any of the genuine work involved of actually dealing, struggling or being responsible for his darker side. The struggles and dilemmas you described are real to the human condition and are exactly the time when humans, clergy or otherwise, need to be able to dig very deep. It certainly helps a great deal if someone with genuine pastoral qualities is open and nearby, but doctrinally that was all but verboten in wayworld-and if some had natural pastoral 'gifts' it either was undeveloped or just plain quashed. Most of us, (well i can really speak only for me, although I do observe people attitudes here at GS) due to our close and lengthy involvement still carry a model of clergy based somewhat on what was seen in The Way--(nothing against the good people who were ordained) but I think the entire model was completely bogus and based greatly on Wierwilles distorted and selfcentered world and human view. The distortion was so immense that it still gets carried through My work brings me into contact with many clergy of different established denominations that have never been in , or for the most part never heard of TWI. Its very common and in some denominations and sometimes a prerequiste to not only be trained in many forms of pastoral counseling (not by hearing someone elses interpretation of one fundamentalist book!) and remain over very lengthy periods in some sort of counseling or spiritual direction. Knowing some of them very closely over a period of many years, I can say that some of them have genuine pastoral gifts that have been developed through years of searching and counselling, that go far beyond anything in TWI --or wouldve ever been possible in that environment. As far as what God or Jesus thinks---To me thats still part of the Way think that was part of the whole screwed up package---I wouldnt be so presumptious to even pretend to know (that would be a good psych study in ego overinflation-- ) I do know its been provided and is a good tool (I hope this is readable--all done in the morning grogs before coffee)

Middle Relief Tom!! Middle Relief! and no more Gagnes!!! We're up to our necks in outfielders already--and now Manny has to go back out there because Papi is back. Davis sounds pretty good--but dang we already have Kevin Ukelele ish , Sean Casey (.356) and Ortiz in line at first...... ...I just went and checked Cruz' numbers (zowie! .... Whats up with him? Im missing something somewhere --- Hes got gigantic numbers but is 27 and been in and out of AAA for 4 years--Nobody can find a place for him on the big club? or is there some problem (personality issue?) somewhere? He's certainly demolishing the PCL.... Why dont you trade us Hamilton to make room for that kid? We could probably find some room for Mr. Holy Sh!t somewhere

ewww changing the story now? My state legislator is a businessman another one is a doctor, in fact of the two running for President who claim to presently be "lawmakers" one was a Navy Pilot, the other a Community Organizer----there's not a lawyer in the whole damn bunch of em Theyve all at one point or another have made the claim to me that they are the ones that write the laws--Im gonna have to call their offices today and straighten them out right quick to step down or hand it back to the attorneys where it really belongs. I didnt know I had to point out each correct step in writing laws to them, Got any other Constitutional insights and legal rules nobodies ever heard of you want to make a fool out of yourselfenlighten us with? I like to watch you make legal stuff up on the fly---then twist out of--Its hilariously entertaining. You might gain some sort of perverse pleasure in annoying people and fancying yourself as some sort of legal watchdog but I dont beleive for a second that even you buy your own bu!!$h!t, or you would be spending times in actual courtrooms defending the wrongly accused instead of flailing away with hyperbolic BS on an small internet board later dude---have a nice day :)

.WoW I learned something new today-- Mr Dugas my 5th Grade teacher was wrong about laws being made and written by legislators. I'm glad we have a constitutional expert in the finer and fundamental points of law around to clear that up. Thanks WD!

Mornin ex - How you doon? :) HERE is the audio portion of this thread. Personally i didnt like the movie the first time I saw it---but now its in endless reruns like Gilligans Island

That thread about noncensorship-got deleted do not pass the soap opera forum do not collect $200.00

Im not sure what they are :) but they sure sound good to me (dmiller? anybody?) Since we're on Celtic Music on strange instruments -- This is the Seamus Ennis on the Uilleann Pipes--a sound that almost always carries me away to some ancient dream

AYUP another relaxing weekend :) So far this year has been pretty mellow--but we are rapidly approaching crunch time of the year so you never know Joba vs Beckett tomorrow night will be interesting... Joba and Youkilis already have a history-- and Beckett would throw at his grandmother if he had to... If it heats up for any reason in the first game...it could be a long, memorable and intense weekend... Middle relief for each team could be key. at least one game ending with Papelbon vs ARod and go ahead runners on would make my week

<_< Who knew Gagne was gonna implode? He did do us a great service reminding us fat dumb and happy Boston Fans that we can still get riled into apopleptic seizures at the mere mention of certain ballplayers if necessary--a lot of us had forgotten that.. ---Going.. Going...Gagne earned a place in BoSox history and reminded us who we really are...and who we can be at a moments notice..... As far as Beltre --Id love to see him play and he very well may be the next--(whoever), but you could also fill the manhattan phone book with the number of 18 year old "cant miss" prospects who youve never heard of....who knows at this point?----i wish him well--the road through the minors is never easy or certain. If he ends up driving in the winning run in the 2012 WS feel free to buy me a Lone Star and we'll call it even...

There's is really nothing wrong with the lights here .--well ....there wasn't --- until 100 greasespotters with an army of lawyers and dictionaries decided to fight over just HOW the lights should be changed and ended up bustin most of the existing lights and covered up the other ones with muck and blood during the argument --let em sit around in the dark for awhile. Im sure there are still a few flamethrowers to see by GSers arent that good at lighting design....or......changing lightbulbs------leave it to the pro's ---call an architect I prefer that indirect recessed lighting myself as opposed to that in your face interrogation style lighting

probably---ceptin Im not 6'11"--- ------ Manny's annual in season vacation started early this year--taking yesterday off, the day after his stressful jaywalking episode in Seattle-- --He usually waits until August or September

I stayed away from those threads for the most part because it seemed very early on that nothing good was going to come out of them...It was sort of like watching someone walk up to a leaky propane tank with a lit match...There was a lot of 'heat' and a lot of 'fuel'---- I just knew that it was not going to be a good sight--and hoped that the mangled would be few... Maybe its a Way thing where people still feel the need to be right supercedes everything --including decency. We've never interacted too much Abigail, I stay more or less on the sidelines, but you offer a sound voice that is consistantly well thought through, thoughtful and compassionate which is too often a rarity at GS.- -I can understand your leaving or taking a timeout---Id like to see you stay, if only for my own selfish reasons to see your reasonable posts, but thats not for me to ask--Do whats best for you and your family...and if you ever do decide to come back you may want to think twice about approaching the thread that has a blowtorch approaching a stick of dynamite in it. They always end up like this... Shalom

Celtic Music does the same to me....I think its something in the genetic memory or something.. That song is called "Kean O'Hara Third Air" Which I got out of The Complete Works of O'Carolan. Its a really great book if you play an instrument and have a penchant toward Celtic Music. Heres another song of OCarolan's--"Blind Mary"

I finally read the "Beef" thread and it gave me a pounding headache.... so I learned an old Irish Air by the blind Irish harper Turlough Carolan instead... much better for me I can only find a short Ukelele version online--but I still like it Kean O'Hara--my song of the moment

Can he catch a knuckleball? I dont know if I mentioned on this thread but for all the years of watching Tim Wakefield throw the knuckler on the tube--I finally sat up close behind homeplate earlier this year to watch him pitch... His knuckler, when its knucklin right, is certifiably insane--Its no wonder that his catchers lead the league in passed balls, and batters look like children [when its on/i] --of course when its not on--its another story--- anyway--what were we talking about? ...If Laird can hit over .150 he may have a shot--of course I dont know what the masterplan is--whatever it is--Im sure Theo is on it..... acne----Im not sayin nothin but thats a side effect of 'roids..

Im so me?? This ones for you Excie :)

12 weeks on the DL? sounds like a trade for Trot Nixon might be in order--I think he is with the Mets now ...watch out Varitek is on fire..that makes two Homeruns in his last 53 games now... I'll be glad when this West Coast swing is over--I hate these games that start after 10. Is RJ collecting Social Security Yet? he must be darn close

I was at my parents house watching it on the old Black and White TV, as i remember it started to drag out and some of my friends came over and we went out in the yard and had a game of wiffleball, while my mother chided me because I was missing history! I saw all the good parts-just didnt hang around for the whole endless time it took for them to get out of the LEM... I came in when Armstrong finally got on the ladder and came down I remember that I had one of the most vivid dreams of my life the night before that woke me straight up.... in the dream Armstrong went down the ladder as we had seen a thousand times in simulation during the week, he put his foot on the moon soil , looked down and right beside his foot laying on the surface was a Roosevelt DIME! Strange dream----i still dont know what to make of it--it sure startled me at the time...

<_< grrrrrrrrrrr I owe you one Dr Strangeglove --you had me goin.... So did he drop the Olympics? ----as far as the Yanks---um... I have first dibs on Teagarden--i called it first. One of the Molina's has been doing great for them anyway... I'll get you back........................................ Hey ----I have a question for general discussion Ive been wondering about especially with Rick Ankiel having the year he is having..... The Red Sox drafted a kid in the first round who is an outstanding shortstop and pitcher---- Like alot of kids his age he is the best at both in his league----multiple no hitters , shut outs and and astronomically low ERA AND he also has an unbelievablel batting average with power and is a great shortstop. How do you make a decision of which one to develop when he turns pro? Its a shame that he cant do both for afew years and go the route that develops the most but Im pretty sure that is not the way that it works.... Anyone know how they make this decision? or what would you do?

...I tentatively walked into a very divey lookin blues bar in Greenville Mississippi last year. It was a little shaky looking like most good blues bars are, and while I was scoping it out wondering whether I should stay (there was a genuine edge of danger in that place) she walked up, sat down, introduced herself to me bought me a drink, and made me feel.... comfortable.... she was immediately--just great.... Long story short-- we spent the evening and into the very wee hours of the morning hopping back and forth between the 4 or 5 blues clubs on the street together....She filled me in on a LOT of local blues lore from the Mississippi Delta (which was incredible), introduced me to the locals, sat in with the any of the various bands, while perpetually making sure that I was having a great time and enjoying my time in the Delta to its fullest...and i did! I have her number on a napkin around here somewhere-- maybe I should call her--she was great :)

hmmmm--I spent most of last winter talking about Teagarden---and from what Ive read I really like him and would love to have him..( I think he is a little down offensively this year but havent checked recently---) ....BUT after seeing Bard pitch ----I get torn----I guess that is what Newberg meant about not getting too attached... It might, and probably would be a good trade for both teams (although Id hate to see Bard go...). ----Im Glad I dont have to make these decisions. Just as an aside--If that trade did go through how exactly does it work if the Red Sox want Teagarden NOW since he is an Olympian? --(not saying they will--but with the catching hitting about .050 since June you never know---) (Scalping Voice) tickets? .....need tickets?....ggggreat seats Sox--O's-------

Dang Its good to see Eden again! (I'll spare you the long story..) Crossroads- and while Im at it, here are THE actual Crossroads (according to local legend)