RottieGrrrl

I really wish I could chime in on this, but I'm not too proud to say that you guys are talking way over my head. And my parents never had the money to bribe me into a college that would take my poor pathetic grades. I do have a dog I bribed into obedience school for 125 dollars though. Sorry. I felt I had to chime in and let you know I'm trying to follow this, but I'm just having a really hard time. Excuse the interruption.

Very funny video. I'm wondering how old this is. I don't watch SNL, but the last time I saw a skit, with the current cast, it was awful. So I'm thinking this has to be an earlier cast. When SNL was still funny, lol.

Well, I kind of know where you are coming from, because I was there. Actually it was years ago, and I truly was a believer, but looking back I just got spiritually mugged for a period of time. The devil and the world were playing mind games with me. One thing that still can frustrate me about God is His seemingly lack of "closeness" I feel at times. I know I'm not alone. We all want some "Special Word." The truth is, many times God wants to answer our prayers through other people. He wants us to work with each other, believers and non believers alike. He wants to work through peoples hearts. And that can take freaking FOREVER it seems, when we desperately want something NOW. That being said, we still should be seeing more miracles in the Church. That's our own fault as well. But, I'm not trying to convert you, and I know you respect others beliefs. :)

Well there ya go. That's pretty much how my dad felt (he was an agnostic) when I figured out how to open it, and declared, as serious as a heart attack..."There IS a God!" But my point is, there really are "God" moments for people throughout life. We just need to recognize them. That's what I mean about our hearts being hardened to everyday things.

I can only speak for myself, . I do know this. Even if I quit believing in God tomorrow, He would still exist. Just because I don't believe something doesn't mean it isn't true. There is way too much order, and miracles that we take for granted every day. Where did LIFE come from? Not just dead lifeless matter, but LIFE. Where did LOVE come from? Humor, songs, creativity, the beauty of nature. But then it's spoiled, it's imperfect. I can also see the evil. God may seem to hide behind a curtain but the devil sure doesn't. People have "God" moments just squinting up at the sun. . There has to be an intelligent design. Something cannot come from Nothing. I think peoples hearts get hardened, (everybody's is to a point) because we are rebellious, and we do not want to live to the standard that God sets before us. We think we are the smartest dog in the show, and we know better. Well just look at the world. How's that working for us? I do agree the church has failed miserably. We SHOULD be seeing much more miracles than we do. If I were sick and went to most preachers, the first thing many (if not most) of them would do is ask if I went to see a doctor. As believers we focus too much on the world, and not on the Word. We become sensitive to the World. This is why sin becomes more and more acceptable, and we feel like outcasts if we don't go along with the worlds ways. Plus, the whole concept of us needing a savior, that we cannot save ourselves, is unique to Jesus. Faith is a positive response to God's grace. We can't save ourselves, and God doesn't love us because we are so good. All we need to do is respond to what Jesus already accomplished and humble ourselves and accept it. But we always feel the need to "work" at it. We can't even humble ourselves enough to accept His grace. As far as evidence, that'a unique to everybody. Everybody has their own God moments. I remember one of mine was the first time I bought a coconut and learned how to open it. The way it was designed just floored me. My brother was an agnostic, until he took a class for plants in college. When he learned how plants work, he realized there had to be an intelligent design. We have just become hardened to so many things we have taken for granted. Oh and there are a zillion examples in the bible when people flat out saw miracles and it didn't do a thing for them. We all can harden our hearts and justify anything to within our small minded reasoning. Right now I'm thinking of When God spoke, and people were saying it was "thunder." John 12:28-30 Well I could go on and on, but that's at least my thoughts for the moment. :)

There is actually a line from a Stephen King novel that has stuck with me for years. It's from the book, Thinner. (It was a movie too) This man, Billy, is cursed by a gypsy, and he keeps losing weight. He seeks help from an acquaintance, who is rather shady, but more than willing to help. When Billy tells his friend of how he was "cursed" by the gypsy, his friend believes him, because as skeptical as his friend is, he says something to the effect of "Anybody who sees something with their own eyes, and still doesn't believe, is a jerk." I've thought of that so many times. But that's another story for another time. Raf: I just respect that you respect people with different views. I do have my own "problems" with God, relationship problems that I'm working on. But I have a bigger problem with religion. I can agree to disagree with people of many different Christian faiths, but it seems that somehow I have to keep my mouth shut about a lot of things lest I'm called a heretic. That just drives me nuts. I just like to keep things rational and reasonable. I would be very careful to question a persons salvation. Only God knows the heart.

Okay, I have no doubt whatsover that God is real and Jesus Christ rose from the dead. I do know about hardening of the heart. My heart has been hardened many times, which is why believers rarely see miracles. Andrew Wommack has a great teaching on this. People can experience miracles and very quickly forget. Look at the Israelite's in the wilderness. People saw Jesus perform miracles and didn't believe. They even wanted to kill Lazarus after he had been raised from the dead. Even the apostles who were with Jesus in his resurrected body, it says "Some still doubted!!!" Mathew 27:17. Even if a person has never experienced anything "supernatural" (which I've no doubt some GS'ers have) there is plenty of evidence in the world. Romans 1 makes it clear, that God reveals Himself through the "seen" to where man has no excuse. But anyway, I'm truly not here to defend God, who needs no defending. I'm just saying there is no way, no how, anybody could ever get me not to believe, no matter what research they come up with. I have my own issues with God, plenty of them. But not believing is not one of them. I am really surprised at myself, after Raf's' post on all the seemingly contradictions on Who saw Jesus first, that I never studied this part more. So I am very grateful for his post! It gives me something to study on. I do notice that Jesus only appeared to believers. If I were Jesus I would have loved to appear to the jerks who beat me and tortured me. I would have given them a scare or two. But I guess that's why I'm not Jesus. that and a billion other reasons. I sure as hell wouldn't die for me. Or anyone else for that matter. Okay, I'm rambling now. I'll be back to read more later. This is really a great thread!

Yeah, I'm digging into this now, and this is deeper than I thought. I'd love to hear some other voices on this. Wow.

Hey This is actually quite great. You gave me a nice format to study. I get excited when I can see something come together, so I"m going to work on this. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to write this out, especially since it got deleted. I HATE IT WHEN THAT HAPPENS! GRRR! Anyway, I know a lot of things are from a matter of perspective, like if there is two angels, then of course there will be "one" in another persons view. I mean, that's how real the Word is. You yourself know (in your business) that when people give different versions, they both may be telling the truth, but just seeing it through different perspectives. Okay, I'm going to copy and paste your stuff and start looking at the scripture. :)

I'm going to chime in here. I might be super naive, but to me, on a personal level. The most compelling argument in the five senses realm alone, is the fact that scripture records a woman being the first witness. I know Lee Strobel brought this up in his book, and I can't believe I just took this for granted all along. People have scoffed at me, and told me it isn't a big deal, that Mary Magdalene was the first one there, so why shouldn't she be the first to witness the resurrection? Or some have downplayed it and told me that women were not nearly as looked down on as the feminists like to portray them. To me they are completely missing the point. Women were not considered to be reliable witnesses back in 1st Century Middle East. Good Heavens, Women were not even allowed to vote in the US until the 20th century. You rarely even saw them on Juries until decades later. I believe that having Mary Magdalene written and recorded in Holy Scripture as being the first witness is HUGE. As I believe Stroble said himself, If the men who wrote scripture were just making up a story, why would they make up a woman being the first witness? Or perhaps, they were telling the truth, and just let the chips fall where they may.

That is a nice piece. Every one of those guys can sing.

All these songs are great! WW: It's Christmas Wrapping by the Waitresses, lol. Great song. I love these songs, some of them I've never seen before, like the Alison Krause song. And the nutty cracker cartoon, lol. Keep these coming, I need some good Christmas music to listen to, instead of the tired old radio songs. Okay, I do like the Elvis/Martina McBride song, though I know it's probably been seen a million times, it's still pretty cool.

Okay. I know nothing about this type of stuff. I seriously can be stupid all day about it. But my recollection of what I remember learning about this, is that they did lower the drinking age during the VietNam War, and it was a freaking disaster. At least in the US. I know living in Illinois that the kids who were 18 here, would always do beer runs across the border to Wisconsin to get their booze, because beer and wine was legal to buy at 19 or something. I have to say that I don't think it's quite fair to compare the US to other countries and their laws, because the US is just so BIG and populated. It's like 50 countries. But, like I said. What do I know?

You are welcome Twinky! And yes that website is BG's ministry. My friend says he's not sure when this copy was made. He did say that by the reference to putting them on audio and/or video cassettes would date it after the Advanced Class, in the early to mid 1980s. He said every manifestation definition was plagiarized, so from the time the Foundation and Intermediate classes were video taped, this would have been in the mid 1970s. He also said that VP was being interviews by TWI's historian (Pam something) he was asked what he did with all his notes from years of researching. VP said "I burned all my notes, all of them" Nobody bought this since the guy kept his basketball jersey, everything, like he was history in the making. He said those who took BG's class, including Dale Sides and others, would know more when BG was first aware of it at all. He said BG was an obscure person easily taken advantage of by VP. Who would ever find out?

Sorry it's so big and sideways. I suck at this and don't know how to make it smaller.

Okay I found it. The thing is it's a spiral, typed book, with no year in it. I'm going to attempt to post a pic. I hope this works. I am also going to email my buddy who sent it to me and find out if he can tell me what year this might be. Let me know if you can't see the pic

I knew somebody was going to ask me that. Hold on while I look for it again. Yes I already misplaced it. Ill be back.

I found my book! lol, I'm excited anyway. Forgive me it's B.G.Leonard and "Gifts of the Spirit" I'm kind of stupid about this kind of stuff. A friend gave this to me and told me to note the forward in the beginning, which he said was meant for VP. This probably has been mentioned on the board before, but I'll type it out anyway. I couldn't believe it when I read it myself, even after knowing that VP did this, lol. Okay, this is on the inside cover of the book. AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE RE REV. B.G. LEONARDS BOOKS. FROM THE AUTHOR TO YOU Skipping down to the second paragraph of the "preface" There has been, from the first appearance of my very first appearance of my very first books upon the market, one terrible and continuing sinful practice engaged in by a high number of BELIEVERS. I refer to PLAGERISM: the sin of attempting him or herself up as THE AUTHOR thereof! They then proceed to photocopy my works in whole or in part and to sell them! Others put them on audio or video cassettes as their own works and get remuneration for same. All this is abhorrent to Our God Who totally forbids it. Okay, then he quotes Jer. 23:30 and said the copyright is his, then he says this. I should have stepped on this diabolical disgrace ages ago. I shall do so now, at the very first signs of its reappearance "ALL RIGHTS RESERVED" means exactly that. Then he signs his name Rev. B.G.Leonard. Okay, I just thought that was very interesting.

Okay WordWolf I just did post it in Gems. Took me a search to find where it was though. Mark you made me lol with your nicely and politely correcting VP. I wish I could find my copy of that Stiles book I have (a friend gave me) where the forward is pretty straightforward about a certain person who plagiarized his work and is charging money for classes from it.

This one from WordWolf..." Every crackpot idea that connected to sex found a home in twi."

:) :) :) This belongs in GreaseSpot gems.

waysider: Thank you! That makes more sense, lol. I was under the impression that Martindale taught that though. Thank you for clearing that up. WordWolf. Thank you for that additional info. I do remember somebody mentioning that Jesus was molested, something about "being brought to naught." I'd have to look it up, but I doubt I will. I didn't know about the Samson one though. Thank you for bringing that up as well. I sometimes wonder why this weird stuff is in the back of my mind, and now I know.It's past TWI stuff that sticks on some brain cells like a piece of toilet paper clinging to your shoe.

Mark that is what I've come to realize too. I've heard that Jesus Christ Our Passover is an excellent book, but I've read on GS that was entirely written by the research team and VP put his name on it. I honestly don't remember him teaching the masturbation thing, in the 79 PFAL class I took, but I pretty much slept and drooled through the whole boring class. However, I do remember the teaching that Mary was not a virgin when she gave birth, and this continued even to the offshoot I attended in the 90s. I clearly remember him teaching that when scripture says "They knew each other" it means not having sex alone, but to have children with that union. I also remember the "angels don't sing" teaching, which they held onto so religiously they wouldn't even sing "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" Well, I could go on, but then this will turn into a doctrinal thread, and that's not what I intended. I just wanted to let you know I agree totally. When others did the research, from his own camp or people like Stiles, it was considered some great revelation. Interestingly, On Stiles forward on his Holy Spirit Book, he pretty much says he wished he would have sued Wierwille (though he doesn't use his name) and stopped him from using his book to charge for classes. Yeah, I sincerely wish he would have sued Wierwille too. It would have prevented a lot of grief for people.

Well now, that's interesting. lol. Somehow though it doesn't seem as weird for Korean gals to be doing that as much as it would Swiss girls though. ;)

Hey waysider, thanks for popping in! lol. Yeah I just think it's weird that this "group" from the Dutch Netherlands made a C/W record at all, I guess. I mean, it's like somebody from Switzerland doing a gangsta rap song. Maybe I just don't get out enough, lol.